Australian JSF/F22 debate hotting up

[OldFrankHog]

Who cares ? I live in Canada and all we have is less then 100 cf-18s to do everything. We know it sucks but we aint crying about it. Australia is in OTAN right ? then dont worry if you ever happen to NEED f-22's im sure the US of A will be kind enough to launch a couple from japan to come and play ball.

[britgliderpilot]

Where did the supercruise JSF come into it. AFAIK the JSF lacks this ability. I totally agree that the networked airspace/sensor fusion is a great advantage.

 

It is also to be noted that this aircraft is designed to replace the F-16 and A-10 within the USAF ranks (two specific CAS aircraft). I acknowledge that it will replace hornets in the navy, but given that the developing nation is not selecting it to replace its front line fighters, yet australia is, as thier sole option, is slightly concerning.

 

I'm going to be surprised if the Joint Strike Fighter isn't mysteriously found to supercruise when it arrives . . . . certainly with internal weapons, although it's open to debate how much it'll operate with or without pylons.

 

With this level of sensor fusion, stealth, and AMRAAM, I really wouldn't be worried about it being a really VERY capable A2A aircraft. Certainly better than the Hornet or Super Hornet.

 

 

With today's systems I think you probably could use a single multirole aircraft satisfactorily - train one squadron in A2A, whack external pylons and SDBs on the other squadron and train it for A2G/CAS.

 

Still worried about the range on the JSF . . . perhaps with external tanks on strike-tasked aircraft it'd be better, but even so . . .

[Pilotasso]

IF they Opt for F-35C along with A's theyll have decent strike range.

[Force_Feedback]

Who cares ? I live in Canada and all we have is less then 100 cf-18s to do everything. We know it sucks but we aint crying about it. Australia is in OTAN right ? then dont worry if you ever happen to NEED f-22's im sure the US of A will be kind enough to launch a couple from japan to come and play ball.

 

That's what I'm always whining about, why the paranoia? Sure, some goverments use it to make their voters feel scared of everything, but come on, don't give in to propaganda so easily. AFAIK all the countries in that region have small fleets of aircraft, for defensive purposes, ok, except for China, Japan, Taiwan and both Koreas/Korea.

[GGTharos]

Any gap formed now has nothing to do with the F-22's since they aint on the menu for us to choose from. I simply state what has been said over and over and that is that the option which seems to have been chosen, the JSF, may not be ready for us when the present hornets (and certainly not F111's) are due to be laid off. Hence, the point of a potential gap in our air defence given the current position we are in.

 

 

However, we are now very possibly obtaining 1 sqn of superbugs so this may take care of any shortfall.

 

As far as retiring the existing hornets, obviously the superbug will be a good replacement for them - they have good naval attack capability, and good Air to Air capability.

There's simply -no- replacement for the F-111. Maybe an F-15E, but that, IIRC, doesn't have the 'Vark's range.

 

 

As said before the F-22's would be a good deterrant force. The JSF would be great for deployment with coalition forces and for the strike role.

 

The F-22 would be useless. It can do only one thing well: Air dominance. For australia, the F-35 will fill that role quite well. Not -as- well as an F-22 would, but quite well, and at a lower cost to boot! That thing's RCS is so low, it'll be basically like a more maneuverable, faster, greater ranged, stealth F-16.

 

But maybe after all that ur statement actually hinted to me trying to say we would have a gap in our air defence with the F-22??

 

 

No, I'm hinting at the fact that the F-22 doesn't give you the best bang for your buck. It isn't a defensive weapon (neither is the F-111 for that matter) it is a very offensive and very expensive one; one you can easily do without when you don't have the budget for it.

[D-Scythe]

The F-22 would be useless. It can do only one thing well: Air dominance. For australia, the F-35 will fill that role quite well. Not -as- well as an F-22 would, but quite well, and at a lower cost to boot! That thing's RCS is so low, it'll be basically like a more maneuverable, faster, greater ranged, stealth F-16.

 

Um, no, the F-22 can do a bunch of other things pretty well - that's why it's replacing the F-117. For one, it's advanced TEWS suite gives it great potential to be a lethal SEAD/DEAD platform, if given a decent weapon that can fit into its weapons bay. It's performance is already there to make it great against SAMs because its stealth and supercruise miniaturizes the threat ring of any SAM it can possibly encounter.

 

Anyway, that potential has been realized for a while now - with the SDB. I'd say basically that any mission whose target(s) an SDB/JDAM can destroy, the F-22 would do well (except CAS).

 

The F-22 is gonna be the plane that kicks the enemy air defense door *wide* open for the USAF. That includes enemy fighters, early warning radars, AWACs and SAMs. Air-to-ground is a major part of the Raptor's game. It's designed for air dominance.

[GGTharos]

Um, no, the F-22 is quite useless for Australia. The F-35 will -happily- fill all these roles for Australia, at lower cost.

 

The F-22 won't be sued as anything more than an Air dominance fighter by the air force. Just like the F-15C - the role of strike aircraft will be left to the F-35, unless there are exceptional circumstances that will warrant the use of the F-22.

 

The real replacement for the F-117 is the F-35, make no mistake about it ... the current situation arises from the fact that the F-35 is not in service.

[Pilotasso]

I Agree with Sythe on this one.

LAst time I checked the F-22 was also the precursor into the enemies defenses regardless of them being AA or AG before F-35 enters the scene. The US military preferrs to use Raptors first before f-35's can come in for support missions. Of course other countries with no money for Raptors will use 35's as mini Raptors as far as they can strech them to.

And no the F-22 will NEVER be used just as interin replacements of F-117's till the 35 enters service. I never heard about that. ANd it doesnt make much sense if you think about it. Specialy when F-22 will eventualy be cleared to use virtualy every weapon first than the 35 will further down the road.

 

As I see it F-22 would be better but the price gap between that and the F-35 for Australia will be hard to justify. Australia is much more on "Just in case" political and strategicaly than the US is.

[GGTharos]

That's the idea. The F-35 is a much bigger bang for the buck under the circumstances. The US has the luxury of owning a whole lot of Raptors (but not as many as they like!)

[tflash]

The F-16 was the best buy ever, built in large numbers, affordable, of great design. It evolved from a lightweight point defender to a true all-rounder. But it never became a long-range interceptor, let alone a long-range bomber (although it's not so bad in the latter role).

 

The F-35A has everything it takes to repeat this success, BUT there are two downsides the F-16 never had: the F-35B and F-35C.

 

Two recipes for cost overruns, design compromises, maintainability desasters and production delays.

 

I'm sure the Aussies are so glad they are paying for this all. Because, lets face it: when you buy the F-35A unfortunately you pay for F-35B. With a little luck, you get a free number to call the Marines in case of trouble, that would make it worth it.

 

Anyway, Belgium would now be flying Mirages if we would have funded the Harrier by buying the F-16.

[TucksonSonny]

Indeed, Australia cannot afford mistakes in this. And it is a very strange situation that the US is these days not offering air superiority aircraft to their allies. Maybe Australia should buy Typhoon?

 

Anyway, Eurofighter Typhoon already kicked away a contract against the superbug for the Austrian Air Force (Austria)

The question is: “Have the Australian air force (Australia) a choice being under heavy US pressure.” (Kind of like Poland)

[pho3nix]

Force_Feedback is correct in saying that this is all paranoia, but thats the name of the game :)

 

I agree with both GG and D-Scythe but if Australia did end up getting the F-22, rest assured that every possible section of the aircrafts mission envelope will be taken advantage of.

 

Thats why the Aussy pilots are the best in the world!

 

The F-22 isnt requiered but it would be exceptional if acquired :)

 

TucksonSonny, yes it may appear that Australia is under US pressure, but rest assured, the Super Hornet is the clear winner in this arms race simpley because of unit, operational and most importantley conversion costs.

 

It made the most sense out of F-15E, EF2000 and the F/A-18 E/F.

 

I love this thread, no one is personaly attacking anybody, and its great to see many people interested in the fate of Australia's air defences.

 

Everyone should come down for a holiday :)

[Anytime]

The F111 was an offensive platform, it was selected by the RAAF to say we can reach out if necessary and strike any where north of us if required. The same can probably be achieved with JSF and long range stand off missiles but obviously the F-22 in most peoples eyes is a far more threatening that the JSF.

 

Bottom line the SU-30MKI must be a great platform to have so many ex RAAF Air Marshalls and analysis buffoons scared out of their wits ... they just don't believe a JSF can make it through the Sukhoi defenses to hit the tgts. Even with Link16 and Wedgetail.

 

an SU-30MKI vs a F15C would make great match up in Lockon with all things modeled well. :) or maybe a F/A-18F v Mig35 would be nicer than the old F18C v Mig29 combo.

 

Force_Feedback is correct in saying that this is all paranoia, but thats the name of the game :)

 

I agree with both GG and D-Scythe but if Australia did end up getting the F-22, rest assured that every possible section of the aircrafts mission envelope will be taken advantage of.

 

Thats why the Aussy pilots are the best in the world!

 

The F-22 isnt requiered but it would be exceptional if acquired :)

 

TucksonSonny, yes it may appear that Australia is under US pressure, but rest assured, the Super Hornet is the clear winner in this arms race simpley because of unit, operational and most importantley conversion costs.

 

It made the most sense out of F-15E, EF2000 and the F/A-18 E/F.

 

I love this thread, no one is personaly attacking anybody, and its great to see many people interested in the fate of Australia's air defences.

 

Everyone should come down for a holiday :)