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Few Questions About "Boom and Zoom" Attacks in a P-51


SharkBait

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Hello Aces,

 

I’m a novice P-51 pilot who joined DCS World a couple weeks ago. I come from an IL-2:CloD background, and having a blast so far with DCS! I have a few questions about performing “boom and zoom” attacks using the P-51, as I believe I haven’t been executing them in the best manner in the last few days.

 

The particular fight that prompted me to ask these questions took place last night. I was flying at about angels 18 and saw a 109 about 6k ft below me. I dove and made a pass without doing too much damage and “zoomed” back up. I looked behind me and the 109 was still behind and below me, but gaining pretty quickly. I kept climbing away thinking that my relative speed advantage would place me further ahead and above him to position myself for another pass, but about 20 seconds later, I saw that he had actually gotten closer to me and was almost co-alt! Then he took a long range shot and instantly killed my pilot :P

 

I understand that 109s have an insane climb rate, but I felt like a P-51 attacking a 109 which is about 6k ft below it should be able to make at least a couple passes safely before egressing to regain energy. In my case, even my first pass was not safe since the 6k altitude advantage didn’t even offer me enough energy to get away safely after the attack run. My hope is that I did something wrong – if not, and if it is common that a P-51 can’t zoom away from a 109 even if the P-51 starts from such an altitude advantage, I’ll be very discouraged!

 

So my questions:

  1. Angle of “boom”: What sort of angle do you like to make your attack run? I know a shallow dive toward a target is a no-no, since you bleed a lot of energy by cutting altitude slowly over a long distance, but what has been your experience in terms of the bare minimum angle required? And what angle is best so that it increases your chances of remaining unseen by the 109?
  2. Angle of “zoom”: What is optimal in terms of energy retention during the zoom? Is it fine to climb up near vertical after going guns on the target and do a hammer head? Or is there a “sweet spot” speed to maintain such that I regain the most energy before turning around for another pass? I know this is situational since horizontal extension is just as important when bouncing on more than one bogeys, but just curious from an energy retention perspective.
  3. Engine setting and speed: What engine setting is safe when diving? I’ve heard it’s fine to go on full WEP with 3,000 RPM – is this true? And what speed should I remain below so that I can maintain enough control to easily aim without locking up?
  4. Yaw tendency: I noticed that my P-51 tends to yaw to the left HARD when I dive (the “ball” in the turn and bank indicator basically goes all the way left and I need to input a lot of left rudder to correct). Is this a common experience for you all? I noticed that this happens especially when my supercharger turns off because I dipped below the altitude in which it kicks in automatically.
  5. Supercharger: Related to #3, can I manually keep my supercharger on during these dives? I feel like most of the “boom and zoom” scenario occurs when I’m at Angels ~20 and the bogeys are at Angels ~15 or lower, which means my supercharger will turn off at some point during my dive. Will setting my supercharger to “on” manually cook my engine faster? Is it even possible to turn it on manually? I haven’t tried playing with it yet.

 

Sorry for the long winded post, but I love the “boom and zoom” fighting style (did a lot of this against Spitfires in IL-2:CloD) and would like to be able to become proficient at it in the Mustang.

 

~S!

SharkBait

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If I may, what was the angle of the 109 relative to you? If you dived on him from behind him, that would be the least effective way to do it, I'd imagine.

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If I may, what was the angle of the 109 relative to you? If you dived on him from behind him, that would be the least effective way to do it, I'd imagine.

 

Magic Zach, I was definitely behind his wingline. If memory serves me, I think I dove in from ~45 degrees behind his wingline and saddled up at his 6. Do you usually dive on your target head-on?

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The behavior of the AI is completely incoherent, sometimes they turn on the spot and even make the stationary.If you want to talk about method to beat them inevitably, it does not exist.Only as they always do the same dance it is necessary just integrate into their cycle and be patient.Normally a P51d should turn shorter in dogfight, but with what I mentioned before, AI cheat.Now try a fight against a player of the same strength as you and you will see the real differences between modules. Anyway, training is the only way to understand the behavior of AI, Good luck.

If you want to check out what I mention prepare a mission with iA groups and observe their behavior in flight, just to gather you will see them doing stationary to expect each other.


Edited by cromhunt
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The behavior of the AI is completely incoherent, sometimes they turn on the spot and even make the stationary.If you want to talk about method to beat them inevitably, it does not exist.Only as they always do the same dance it is necessary just integrate into their cycle and be patient.Normally a P51d should turn shorter in dogfight, but with what I mentioned before, AI cheat.Now try a fight against a player of the same strength as you and you will see the real differences between modules. Anyway, training is the only way to understand the behavior of AI, Good luck.

If you want to check out what I mention prepare a mission with iA groups and observe their behavior in flight, just to gather you will see them doing stationary to expect each other.

 

Thanks for your note, cromhunt. I was actually not fighting with an AI controlled plane (the fight was in the Burning Skies server), but good to have this context. Thanks!

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Magic Zach, I was definitely behind his wingline. If memory serves me, I think I dove in from ~45 degrees behind his wingline and saddled up at his 6. Do you usually dive on your target head-on?
I haven't done any combat in some time, but if I could help it, I would dive on a target from its front and sides. I think doing a straight head on with a 109 is a bad idea, because the nose guns are accurate over distance, and if he pulls up and aims his sights on you, you're pretty boned because you're not a moving target. If that were the case, I'd pull up and slightly to the side before I got within his range.

This is what I would do. And I'm no pro. Solty is...probably. He'd know better than me.

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But if you dive from his 6, or really even wind up on it, dump as much lead into him as you possibly can, because the 109's damage model is bogus atm, and because if you pull up after you pass him (or close), even if you're 100MPH faster, then he can climb up after you and catch you. If he has a heavy fuel load, and you have a light fuel load, there's a chance that he will stall before he reaches you (sometimes indicated by poorly-aimed and desperate tracers whizzing by), at which point you can hammerhead and get shots on him before he flys and turns away.

Again, my thoughts.


Edited by Magic Zach

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you squandered the advantage you had. why would you wait for him to gain on you? you have to keep up your offensive because every second longer spent running away is one second longer he has to recover.

 

should be able to make at least a couple passes safely before egressing to regain energy

this is a real headscratcher, because in energy fighting if you get to make multiple passes at all, then it means the other guy is even lower energy than you and isnt getting a chance to recover, so why would you have to go regain energy if you are already executing more energy-conservative maneuvers than him? that's why you're in the vertical in the first place! you disengage because there's the threat of getting thirdpartied, not because the enemy is some magic fairy that gets an influx of energy all of a sudden after you do 3 passes. no, he gets energy because you ran away to "regain energy" yourself.

 

if you're gonna hit a guy you better be thinking about how to kill him.


Edited by probad
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[*] Engine setting and speed: What engine setting is safe when diving? I’ve heard it’s fine to go on full WEP with 3,000 RPM – is this true? And what speed should I remain below so that I can maintain enough control to easily aim without locking up?

There is no ideal setting, it depends on yours initial speed and enemy speed - or your speed advantage over your target and your altitude and position against your enemy, but mostly 3000/61 is more than enough.

You just can not exceed 505MPH IAS.

 

[*] Yaw tendency: I noticed that my P-51 tends to yaw to the left HARD when I dive (the “ball” in the turn and bank indicator basically goes all the way left and I need to input a lot of left rudder to correct). Is this a common experience for you all? I noticed that this happens especially when my supercharger turns off because I dipped below the altitude in which it kicks in automatically.

Yaw tendency, that is right, it is for all propeller driven planes.

When supercharger swich to low gear (not off), plane lost power, means lower propeller torque, this change yaw tendency.

[*] Supercharger: Related to #3, can I manually keep my supercharger on during these dives?

You can only manualy swith to "Low" (or 1st) gear, but that is emergency procedure when automatic switching fail and supercharger remains on "High" (or 2nd) gear, to prevent damage engine.

To keep supercharget on Low gear is purposeless because you lost power at higher altitudes.

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nothing particularly scientific about my assertion that shouldn't happen but there you are.

 

generally when i jump people i reach 490~ mph and have no problem zooming above them for the first two or so climbs. after that it's time to dive and run if you haven't killed them.

 

were you pushing VNE on the way in? if your wings aren't about to fall off you're doing it wrong imo.

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you squandered the advantage you had. why would you wait for him to gain on you? you have to keep up your offensive because every second longer spent running away is one second longer he has to recover.

 

 

this is a real headscratcher, because in energy fighting if you get to make multiple passes at all, then it means the other guy is even lower energy than you and isnt getting a chance to recover, so why would you have to go regain energy if you are already executing more energy-conservative maneuvers than him? that's why you're in the vertical in the first place! you disengage because there's the threat of getting thirdpartied, not because the enemy is some magic fairy that gets an influx of energy all of a sudden after you do 3 passes. no, he gets energy because you ran away to "regain energy" yourself.

 

if you're gonna hit a guy you better be thinking about how to kill him.

 

A one-pass kill is ideal but unfortunately r damage model isn't always conducive to this. Watching the TacView on some of these attacks where you score over 200 hits with no kill are pretty comical sometimes...of course against a human it's not quite as bad, but still...

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My advice to the OP would be to watch sharp manoeuvres as you can bleed speed quickly by comparison to some other games if you're not careful. Dive on your opponent with us much speed as you can carry but not at too steep an angle that you have to pull too much on the stick to get your shot and afterwards, don't yank on the stick into a vertical climb as you can kiss goodbye to airspeed very quickly and your opponent might climb right up after you in a sustained climb. The P51 dives better than the 109, but the 109 has a higher horse-power to weight ratio, it accelerates and zoom climbs very well so can be tricky to tackle. I find I have to be careful with speed in DCS, really plan my attack, line up my angles and escape in a fluid, energy efficient manoeuvre and re-assess the situation. You might start the manoeuvre with an energy advantage but if you blow it in your attack and egress through sharp energy inefficient manoeuvres you can be made to pay by some of the very experienced red pilots.

 

*edit: Something to consider - the P51 carries a lot of fuel by default and while this weight helps a little in the dive, likewise it hampers manoeuvrability and climbing a little. A lot of people drop their fuel load online, ~40% fuel in the P51 is the equivalent of 100% fuel in the Spitfire and isn't a bad figure to try out. It can make a small but useful difference compared to engaging laden with full fuel imho. Suggest try it out and see for yourself.


Edited by Bounder

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The fellow who taught me BnZ in an SE5a in a long ago WWI flight sim, said (over and over) "Softee, softee catchee monkey."

 

It's about patience. It's about gaining an altitude advantage and using it. Usually with repeat passes.

 

It really should be called "Boom and run away" Don't zoom. EXTEND! Use the speed you gained in your dive to get out of range, reverse and climb gradually while keeping as much of your energy as possible. Gradually (!) trade that speed for altitude only after you are safely away. Then do it again. Wash, rinse and repeat.

 

Rule #1 in Dicta Boelcke: Always attack from a position of advantage.

 

Or as SE5a ace Mick Mannock put it: "Always from above, seldom from equal altitude and never from below."

 

Softee. softee catchee monkey....


Edited by HotTom

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Yaw tendency: I noticed that my P-51 tends to yaw to the left HARD when I dive (the “ball” in the turn and bank indicator basically goes all the way left and I need to input a lot of left rudder to correct). Is this a common experience for you all? I noticed that this happens especially when my supercharger turns off because I dipped below the altitude in which it kicks in automatically.

 

The rudder of the P-51 is slightly off centerline (you can see this if you take a close look at the 3d model), i think the reason is that prop slipstream is helical , therefore it doesn't hit the rudder straight on but at a slight angle and that is the optimal orientation for the majority of flight situations. When you enter a dive, your speed increases, which effects the angle that the slipstream hits the rudder as well as the rudders effectiveness. This is the reason why you need to retrim when you change speed. You need to trim your rudder a lot in prop planes, it's part of the deal.

 

When your supercharger changes gear, it means your power setting might change, requiring you to either readjust your power setting or your trim. This is all perfectly normal.

 

TLDR, every time you change power setting and/or speed, you need to retrim your rudder.

 

Supercharger: Related to #3, can I manually keep my supercharger on during these dives? I feel like most of the “boom and zoom” scenario occurs when I’m at Angels ~20 and the bogeys are at Angels ~15 or lower, which means my supercharger will turn off at some point during my dive. Will setting my supercharger to “on” manually cook my engine faster? Is it even possible to turn it on manually? I haven’t tried playing with it yet.

 

Your supercharger is never off as long as the engine is running. If your supercharger were off below ~15-20k feet, you wouldn't be able to reach boost pressures in excess of 30inHg (athmospheric pressure, you can see this when the engine is off, the MP gauge will jump to 30inHg as soon as the engine stops turning).

 

So what does a supercharger do? It's a compressor geared off of the crankshaft that compresses air before it enters the engine, therefore enabling the engine to burn additional fuel with every combustion cycle (because more air is available). The downside is that the compressor leeches a few 100 horsepower off the crankshaft. Under normal circumstances, this is more than offset because of the massive increase in available manifold pressure (from 30 up to in excess of 60 inHg).

 

So at low altitude, it is in low gear, because it doesn't need to compress the air as much as at higher altitudes. At higher altitudes, the supercharger kicks into high gear to supply you with enough pressure (lower outside pressure means it has to work harder to still reach 60inHg). The downside is that in high gear, the supercharger leeches even more power off your crankshaft.

 

What the supercharger switch is for is if you want to fly at higher altitudes at low manifold pressures. You would force the supercharger into low gear because you don't need it to waste energy to compress air to a manifold pressure that you aren't using, so keeping it in low gear is more fuel efficient in this circumstance.

 

In combat, you won't be spending a lot of time flying with less than 40inHg of manifold pressure, so there's really no reason to think about the manual supercharger switch. Leave it in auto mode.


Edited by sobek

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Hello Aces,

 

Sorry for the long winded post, but I love the “boom and zoom” fighting style (did a lot of this against Spitfires in IL-2:CloD) and would like to be able to become proficient at it in the Mustang.

 

~S!

SharkBait

The B&Z is quite simple but requires patience and selfcontrol.

 

Before I start I want to make it clear that DCS is not a perfect game for such attacks due to external sounds beeing so loud that the enemy can hear you approaching pretty easily and especially with Diveplane's mod that allows a person to hear a plane comming from 2nm away.

 

Anyway. The B&Z approach is pretty straight forward, you want to catch your target when it is below you and preferably way slower. You have to remember that just because a plane is below you that doesn't mean it is low on energy

 

When setting up for an approach you should remember that you do not want to be seen. You want to come from the sun or cloud and know target's energy estimate. You have to remember that you will have a very short shooting window when attacking and you preferably want your enemy to not be able to react to your attack. In DCS, again, it is very hard due to the limitations of the Damage model, most of your hits do next nothing (smoke is not an indication of critical damage, just HP of a module went down). 1100ft is the convergence on the Mustang, that's around 330m. Learn to use the K-14 for the perfect gun solutions.

 

You do not want to attack from perfect level 6 o'clock. You want to be a bit above, so that the target is presenting a better profile or you want to dive below your target to enter his blind spot. When you shoot the target and it doesn't go down, you have to climb back up to set up for another attack, but do not immediately point your nose up. Watch his reaction and try to get an angle that allows for the quickest and least energy intensive maneuvering. Separation is a very important part of any B&Z approach. In a heavy plane and especially against monsters like the K4 which can climb at 24m/s it is a key to survival

 

When you hit your target and it doesn't go down in flames, watch its nose. If he turns into you and the angle is too steep, abort your attack and point your nose away from him, even continue the dive for a bit, try to hide under his wing or any other blind spot and when you are about 1.5km away start a shallow climb and preferably chandelle or immelman to position above the target. You do not want him to follow you. If you can tell that he is following you and that he has low energy you can try to lure him into a hammerhead reversal, but that is risky and needs a lot of experience.You have to try to make your movment fluid and very easy. You do not want to do any high-G pullouts. That kills your energy and allows the bandit to cut into your vertical turn.

 

The hardest part comes here. If you attack the target and he can see you and you do not have that 200kph speed advantage, you want to run away. The hardest part is that you have to refuse to engage in a dogfight, you have to retreat and make him leave you alone. But do not dive away steeply. In a Mustang you are 5mph faster than the 109 and about 5mph slower than the 190D9 in level flight. So you want to prolong that dive as much as possible so that you fly close to 505mph and gain separation. Watch your ball and trim your rudder and ailerons.

 

With a new sound system and DM the B&Z tactic will be a lot better. For now try to remember to close your throttle when approaching your enemy and use a bit steeper angles with 0% RPM so that you can silently approach your enemy. It is not ideal, but you have to do it so that he will not react to you. :joystick:


Edited by Solty
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Sincere thanks to everyone who responded and offered insights. The discussion has been very helpful for me!

 

Some of my key takeaways:

  • Try to enter the attack with as much speed as possible
  • Yaw tendency is normal; compensate with rudder or trim; that the aircraft is yawing becomes clear even when not looking at the "ball" since the gunsight moves to either left or right
  • Try to cripple the enemy in the first pass (practice gunnery!)
  • Look for the most energy efficient way to regain separation and altitude advantage (avoid high G maneuvers)
  • P-51 can outrun a 109 in a shallow dive (per Solty) - this is a new revelation for me!

 

I'm actually very surprised that there is a mod that people can use which allows them to hear aircraft 2nm away (or that it's even allowed on a full real server like Burning Skies / ACG!). I can't say whether that is realistic, since I have no experience in these planes, but I remember reading about how your own plane's engine noise is so loud that you can't really hear anything outside. In my gameplay experience, I don't remember hearing a 190 or 109 close behind me, but maybe that's because I'm more focused on the warning bell.

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