ECM Blinking

[GGTharos]

Yep, bombers have very large area, so they are /huge/ IR targets. Hehe.

 

As for links, I'll look some up for you a little later if I don't forget - I have links to the associated math mostly, I think - and that's the really important part if you want to understand jammers ... well. To be more precise, you have to understand radar to understand a jammer (After all, the jammer's not doing a who lot more other than sending back your own radar signal, albeit somewhat modified in one way or another)

[D-Scythe]

(BTW, does that give you some insight as to the R-27T/ET's real purpose? ;) )

 

To chase down fleeing/rear-aspect targets that are out of the R-73's kinematic capability to intercept? AFAIK, ECM/jamming targets are not the raison d'etre for the R-27T/ET.

[GGTharos]

Yep, they are. If you can't hit that huge bomber attacking your motherland with NUKES with a radar missile, you're going to use a big IR missile.

 

The Su-27 was conceived as a defensive aircraft - to stop bombers from attacking Russia. While its features are competitive with the F-15, both of these fighters had one job: To stop enemy bomber formations coming to bomb their countries. For the Russians, the easiest way to deal with ECM was a big IR missile. That it has /other/ applications ... well.

[gundelgauk]

I have links to the associated math mostly, I think - and that's the really important part if you want to understand jammers ... well.

I don't mind that at all. I tried to deal with the sonar physics in Sub Command and I'm willing to bet that those are a lot more elaborate than radar physics in LockOn. I just love this kind of stuff. The more "physical", the better.

 

Thanks in advance.

[GGTharos]

Yeah, they probably are, but in the end the output of the jammer's function is binary in a way - your missile misses, or it doesn't. You could even just roll a die ... to make it look more dynamic, you could re-roll the die a few times during the course of the engagement. If the jammer's operation is completely automated, then you'll probably have a reasonable simulation of what a jammer will do to your BVR. Maybe - I'm no expert.

 

Oh, BTW - I'm pretty sure radar physics in LO obey the radar equation to some degree. But, things are getting more complex in the code in the future ... they might end up integrating SNR, sources of noise, etc.

[Anytime]

Fighters generally use Self Screening jamming in 2 forms,either noise or deception:

 

1. Noise jamming (modeled in Lockon?):

a.) Spot noise, jam the current frequency the radar is operating over.

b.) Barrage noise: jam the whole frequency band

 

both shouldn't work if the jammer is toggled on and off, you'll just be highlighting your position in case the pilot was having a coffee and didn't see your track pop up on the screen.

 

You should be able to lock onto the bearing (noise) and fire a HOJ shot.

 

2. Deceptive Jamming (assume not modeled in Lockon)

a.) Basically the jammer tries to spoof the receiving radars tracking by giving false returns in range, bearing or doppler. Thus pulling the track the pilot will see on his screen of the actual position of the tgt in the end causing track to be dropped and the whole process starting again.

 

So by blinking the jammer it's kind of like 2, your denying the correct tracking of the tgt, it's there for a second but then drops so you can"t hook it. Modern radars will counter the jamming by jumping frequencies (and many other ECCM techniques) so the ecm unit can't detect when it's being scanned and give false returns. But if you can narrow your scan and continue to track all he's doing is denying u that loussy long range 120 shot that will miss anyway! So you have a counter, you can still track the guy and position for the shot.

 

As GG said just track them and fire when your in burn through range for a noise jammer.

 

In summary if I'm not wrong, which I probably am :), ED has modeled noise jamming with the ECCM technique to counter it being burn through and HOJ so all should be fair, but some cleaver pilots have determined they can turn it into a deceptive jammer of some sorts, but the counter technique is to just track the guy until the burn through range for a noise jammer and fire. Hopefully fixing the 120s pk in normal and HOJ will stop most people from using the jammer for more than a second or so.

 

ps if you want a very good book get Airbone Pulsed Doppler Radar, covers monopulse, phased arrays both types, ECM and ECCM. It's understandable and you can skip over the math if you want and still get the jist of it.

[GGTharos]

Fighters generally use Self Screening jamming in 2 forms,either noise or deception:

 

1. Noise jamming (modeled in Lockon?):

a.) Spot noise, jam the current frequency the radar is operating over.

b.) Barrage noise: jam the whole frequency band

 

I think though, SPJ's won't do barrage noise jamming - you lose a lot of power doing that.

 

both shouldn't work if the jammer is toggled on and off, you'll just be highlighting your position in case the pilot was having a coffee and didn't see your track pop up on the screen.

 

You should be able to lock onto the bearing (noise) and fire a HOJ shot.

 

Agreed! But, I don't think a fighter's SPJ would be jamming unless it was locked onto to begin with! You can only jam a limited number of emitters with an SPJ, IIRC. So you want to jam only the 'threats' ... those would be radars that are locked onto you, I'd think!

 

2. Deceptive Jamming (assume not modeled in Lockon)

a.) Basically the jammer tries to spoof the receiving radars tracking by giving false returns in range, bearing or doppler. Thus pulling the track the pilot will see on his screen of the actual position of the tgt in the end causing track to be dropped and the whole process starting again.

 

Or just giving you false closure info - you don't notice, you launch a radar missile ... it uses closure in its PN calculation, and goes wide. You still know where the guy is, it's just that your darned missiles are going elsewhere!

 

So by blinking the jammer it's kind of like 2, your denying the correct tracking of the tgt, it's there for a second but then drops so you can"t hook it. Modern radars will counter the jamming by jumping frequencies (and many other ECCM techniques) so the ecm unit can't detect when it's being scanned and give false returns. But if you can narrow your scan and continue to track all he's doing is denying u that loussy long range 120 shot that will miss anyway! So you have a counter, you can still track the guy and position for the shot.

 

Quite right! But just importantly you have to use the same technique right back so that he doesn't put you too much on the defensive either. More importantly, change your vector a lot to avoid those maddogged ETs.

 

As GG said just track them and fire when your in burn through range for a noise jammer.

 

In summary if I'm not wrong, which I probably am :), ED has modeled noise jamming with the ECCM technique to counter it being burn through and HOJ so all should be fair, but some cleaver pilots have determined they can turn it into a deceptive jammer of some sorts, but the counter technique is to just track the guy until the burn through range for a noise jammer and fire. Hopefully fixing the 120s pk in normal and HOJ will stop most people from using the jammer for more than a second or so.

 

 

Yeah, you got it quite right :D

The issue /is/ with using the jammer several times a second actually.

It's frustrating for the shooter, and your friends behind you likely won't appreciate it either.

[Anytime]

Yeah that's the most annoying thing when ppl use it on your own side!

 

It's the only time when blue on blue is cool :)

 

 

Yeah, you got it quite right :D

The issue /is/ with using the jammer several times a second actually.

It's frustrating for the shooter, and your friends behind you likely won't appreciate it either.

[Pilotasso]

OK, Im going to give out my opinion just as I promised before.

 

ECM blinking, no matter how much anyone can go arround it, isnt realistic. Why?

 

-Its a side effect of something that wasnt intended to be modeled.

-There is no ECCM, when IRL there is.

-IRL no fighter in this game can be efectively disabled in midair like this except when F-22 comes into the scene ;) the fact that you can still maddog missiles to try circunvent this, is only due to another flaw in the game.

-Real world blinking is donne by the Pods own internal antenna transmitter swich and not the whole POD, like GG explained there are delays in it to start operate.

-Real world Jammers have to analize the signal everytime they are turned on, if you blinked the on/off button of a real jammer like this not only you would have the delay of leting it start but also signal processing--renders it useless not to mention that you could damage it.

 

So using a home crafted measure to add features on your own that cannot be combated is an exploit, I have no other way to avoid look at this that way. All other points of view come when you farfetch them.

 

It ruins gameplay for everybody and serves only to inflate or bruise someone elses ego online.

 

Is it worth complaining anymore? No, furthermore ED is aware and something have already been made to it and some other measures have been put on the table and we only rest to wait. In the meantime load up the mig and shoot the blinkers on their backs with the EOS. Everytime you do it I garauntee that it feels as good as 10 kills. If you loose, then largely its not your fault. Suck it up. I gave up of that after several protests only to be dragged down in that discussion and be defeated with experience.

 

Can you blaim ECM blinkers? Maybe not, its a human nature to get some bias torwards something when it gives you the advantage, and remenber that despite that there are blinkers there are also those who still pay a server to let you play in.

 

 

Cheers, and peace!

[GGTharos]

OK, Im going to give out my opinion just as I promised before.

 

ECM blinking, no matter how much anyone can go arround it, isnt realistic. Why?

 

-Its a side effect of something that wasnt intended to be modeled.

-There is no ECCM, when IRL there is.

-IRL no fighter in this game can be efectively disabled in midair like this except when F-22 comes into the scene ;) the fact that you can still maddog missiles to try circunvent this, is only due to another flaw in the game.

 

In a way it's almost as if you were fighting F-22's :D Except for the fact that you can see'em on radar.

 

-Real world blinking is donne by the Pods own internal antenna transmitter swich and not the whole POD, like GG explained there are delays in it to start operate.

-Real world Jammers have to analize the signal everytime they are turned on, if you blinked the on/off button of a real jammer like this not only you would have the delay of leting it start but also signal processing--renders it useless not to mention that you could damage it.

 

The signal processing is extremely fast (it HAS to be) but the fact is that you basically have the pod OFF, STANDBY or AUTO. Standby will sit there and 'listen' and just won't transmit, unless you let it. AUTO will automatically attempt to jam anyone locking onto you. But I'll guarantee you, you won't be reaching to 'blink' your jammer in a REAL aircraft, with a REAL missile coming at you ... and THIS part of realism will be addressed at some point in time.

'Blinking' your jammer will stop it from trying the multiple ECM techniques it may have programmed into it, plus a few other undesireable issues.

 

So using a home crafted measure to add features on your own that cannot be combated is an exploit, I have no other way to avoid look at this that way. All other points of view come when you farfetch them.

 

It ruins gameplay for everybody and serves only to inflate or bruise someone elses ego online.

 

Is it worth complaining anymore? No, furthermore ED is aware and something have already been made to it and some other measure are been put on the table and we only rest to wait. In the meantime load up the mig and shoot the blinkers on their backs with the EOS. Everytime you do it I garauntee that it feels as good as 10 kills. If you loose, then largely its not your fault. Suck it up. I gave up of that after several protests only to be dragged down and be defeated with experience.

 

Can you blaim ECM blinkers? Maybe not, its a human nature to get some bias torwards something when it gives you the advantage, and remenber that despite that there are blinkers there are also those who still pay a server to let you play in.

 

 

Cheers, and peace!

 

 

 

I think it's not as bad as you make it out to be. Frankly for me, the 'invisible mig' is far worse - if he notches me within say 15nm, that's it. I'm unlikely to reacquire, and I can't see him - he can see me foreva!

 

The 'blink' I can deal with. Personally - as I said, I use it, and I will continue to use it, but I don't strobe 10 )(#&$(#@&$)#($* times a second. I just do it to drop lock when locked.

[BiggestPig]

Hardcore

 

I'm so hardcore simmer that everything what cannot be done in RL, I won't do in a game. I don't care much if others don't think the same. Well okay, it's maybe a little annoying if someone shoots 6 missiles towards me at once.

 

If I had the time/money/resources, I'd put up a server where you have only ONE life. You get killed, off you go. If you manage to eject, then you could carry on, maybe, depends on WHERE you ejected. Maybe it takes time to rescue you, so you could go online after a while. And yes, everything what is "not" in real life, would be cheating, even if you could do it in game. And of course, statics would be zeroed every now and then. Otherwice there would be finally only a one pilot left :)

 

But that's only my opinion. We also should keep in mind that this is a game, and games are supposed to be entertainment. BUT, also true, simulators try to simulate the real thing...

[Frostie]

 

If I had the time/money/resources, I'd put up a server where you have only ONE life.

 

It happens, in squad matches ,not to mention no rearm or refuel.

One off its works a treat but as a 24hr server it would be a non event.

[Frostie]

Yep, they are. If you can't hit that huge bomber attacking your motherland with NUKES with a radar missile, you're going to use a big IR missile.

 

The Su-27 was conceived as a defensive aircraft - to stop bombers from attacking Russia. While its features are competitive with the F-15, both of these fighters had one job: To stop enemy bomber formations coming to bomb their countries. For the Russians, the easiest way to deal with ECM was a big IR missile. That it has /other/ applications ... well.

Why only an 8 mile seeker then, or am I missing something like a DL or something?

[GGTharos]

You're missing the fact that you could launch your SARH at 1km from the bomber and it would go anywhere but the bomber.

 

And the fact that LO doesn't seem to take area into account for heat signature - you can pick up a large aircraft farther than a fighter.

[JonTex]

I CAN BLINK MY EYES ALL I WANT TO AND YOU CANT STOP ME !!! :huh:

 

a heh .... sorry wrong thread.:D

[GGTharos]

*blinks at JonTex* ;)

[JonTex]

Hey I got a question. If I disconnect from the server before your missle hits me everytime I play Multiplayer is that cheating? :joystick:

[GGTharos]

Well, I waste a missile, you waste time. :D

[JonTex]

sweet , im gonna be untouchable.:D

[Pilotasso]

Hey I got a question. If I disconnect from the server before your missle hits me everytime I play Multiplayer is that cheating? :joystick:

 

As long as you dont come back, its not. ;)

[golfsierra2]

I'd like to add some thoughts to this subject as well, starting with some keypoints first:

- LOMAC / FC only is a simulation, not the real world

- Because of that, is isn't a complete simulation and lacks of many real world issues such as ECCM, for example

- and worse, it it bugged or things are simulated only roughly, otherwise one would need the combined calculating power of all US universities to make that happen.

 

 

ECM blinking, no matter how much anyone can go arround it, isnt realistic.

 

No pilot would do it IRL, but on the other hand, from the technical feasibility, he is able to just turn his ECM POD on and off IRL as we do it in LOMAC. In the end, it's just a switch (and the POD needs some time to react...). But again, manually blinking won't be a thing to think about IRL.

 

Why?

 

-Its a side effect of something that wasnt intended to be modeled.

 

As said above, practically it could be done IRL, but ist makes no sense to do it.

 

-There is no ECCM, when IRL there is.

-IRL no fighter in this game can be efectively disabled in midair like this except when F-22 comes into the scene ;) the fact that you can still maddog missiles to try circunvent this, is only due to another flaw in the game.

 

Fully correct.

 

-Real world blinking is done by the Pods own internal antenna transmitter swich and not the whole POD, like GG explained there are delays in it to start operate.

 

Correct, however, the crude way - like done in LOMAC - would be to just switch the POD on and off manually. From the technical aspect, it's possible to do so, but likely will shorten the PODs life and the mechanics / groudn crew will yell at ya if they would find out about you messing around with the POD that way :music_whistling:

 

-Real world Jammers have to analize the signal everytime they are turned on, if you blinked the on/off button of a real jammer like this not only you would have the delay of letting it start but also signal processing--renders it useless not to mention that you could damage it.

 

Depends on the technical generation of the POD. Newer models will try to analyze the incoming energy first before 'answering' with a jam signal, older (very crude ones) just will blast their RF power away...

 

So using a home crafted measure to add features on your own that cannot be combated is an exploit, I have no other way to avoid look at this that way. All other points of view come when you farfetch them.

 

I don't follow your arguments here. If it is possible in LOMAC to switch things on and off, it can not be considered as an exploit, because this is possible without manipulation of the simulation itself. No use of tweaks, code manipulation or else are necessary to do so, and everybody using the same version (1.02 or 1.12a) has the same advantages and disadvantages. How you handle them tactical or procedural wise, is up to everybody's free will and decision. Working out a strategy to break opponents lock by ECM blinking is just a way of dealing with the simulations limitations and no exploit. Again, all have the same advantages / disdavantages. make the best of it for your own benefit. That still is fair, I think.

 

It ruins gameplay for everybody and serves only to inflate or bruise someone elses ego online.

 

No, it only expresses the jealousness of those, who were no clever enough to 'invent' this strategy, though they had the chance to do it themselves.

 

Is it worth complaining anymore? No, furthermore ED is aware and something have already been made to it and some other measures have been put on the table and we only rest to wait. In the meantime load up the mig and shoot the blinkers on their backs with the EOS. Everytime you do it I garauntee that it feels as good as 10 kills.

 

Exactly. Just live with it. And meanwhile try to dig deeper into the (simulated) technical possibilities. Maybe, there are other clever ways to fool your opponent within the frame of the original (untweaked and unmanipulated) simulation.

 

If you loose, then largely its not your fault. Suck it up. I gave up of that after several protests only to be dragged down in that discussion and be defeated with experience.

 

Can you blame ECM blinkers? Maybe not, its a human nature to get some bias torwards something when it gives you the advantage, and remember that despite that there are blinkers there are also those who still pay a server to let you play in.

 

Cheers, and peace!

[OldFrankHog]

I don't follow your arguments here. If it is possible in LOMAC to switch things on and off, it can not be considered as an exploit, because this is possible without manipulation of the simulation itself. No use of tweaks, code manipulation or else are necessary to do so, and everybody using the same version (1.02 or 1.12a) has the same advantages and disadvantages. How you handle them tactical or procedural wise, is up to everybody's free will and decision.

 

 

So if in a first person shooter i go close to a wall and press prone/stand/prone/stand/prone/stand, enter in the wall and shoot ppl through it whyle they cant shoot me through it this aint an exploit or a cheat....you said yourself the game alows me to press prone/stand/prone/stand as much as i like.... L O L

 

riiiiiiight

[D-Scythe]

So if in a first person shooter i go close to a wall and press prone/stand/prone/stand/prone/stand, enter in the wall and shoot ppl through it whyle they cant shoot me through it this aint an exploit or a cheat....you said yourself the game alows me to press prone/stand/prone/stand as much as i like.... L O L

 

riiiiiiight

 

Like Bunny-hopping in BF2...wonder if golfsierra would consider that an exploit too.

[Prophet]

The biggest complaint I have, is not the people who are turning it on and off. They have to press the key each time, or button on the stick. Sure go ahead, it takes concentration and such to do so.

 

The problem is when people have it macro'd to press E 1000 times, with a .0001 second delay inbetween, so that you dont even see the strobe, yet you are being jammed.

 

Unless someone actually comes on this forum and reads about it, they will most likely not think of doing so. And what of those people that dont have programmable keyboard or HOTAS? Or that just havent thought of doing it.

 

You can say everyone can do it, and has the same advantage to do so, but that isnt true.

 

Regardless, I know someone will come in here to hash my remarks apart, and turn it around like a politician, but whatever. If ED doesnt change it, I guess I will just be flying less A2A.

[159th_Dorsk81]

The biggest complaint I have, is not the people who are turning it on and off. They have to press the key each time, or button on the stick. Sure go ahead, it takes concentration and such to do so.

 

The problem is when people have it macro'd to press E 1000 times, with a .0001 second delay inbetween, so that you dont even see the strobe, yet you are being jammed.

 

Unless someone actually comes on this forum and reads about it, they will most likely not think of doing so. And what of those people that dont have programmable keyboard or HOTAS? Or that just havent thought of doing it.

 

You can say everyone can do it, and has the same advantage to do so, but that isnt true.

 

Regardless, I know someone will come in here to hash my remarks apart, and turn it around like a politician, but whatever. If ED doesnt change it, I guess I will just be flying less A2A.

 

 

Would anyone care to comment on that. I must confess I agree with his sentiments on this matter. Feel free to add your comments wether you agree or not on the use of ECM Blinking.