ECM Blinking

[GGTharos]

Look at the post above yours. It's already gotten personal. :P

[Frostie]

Personally I hate blinking Jammers, it ruins the engagement ,and if everyone did it there would be absoloutely no point in HOJ, Engagements wouldn't occur until 15miles which would make BVR a shadow of what it should be.:(

Yes I blink my Jammers ,now and then depending on circumstance, not as excessively more of 2 or 3 times in an engagement, im totally going against what I believe to conform.

Its the same with maddogging ET's from 20 , 30km away , I despise it but I do it because its accepted.

 

Probably the majority of people who complain about blinking Jammers don't think twice about maddogging , and this is a total contradiction.

Give it time and blinking jammers will soon be like maddogging , ignored.

[D-Scythe]

How do you get more perfect conditions than a radar-directed launch?

 

Um, an attack against an unsuspecting target? The *perfect* engagement is the one where the target doesn't get any warning until the AMRAAM lights him up in the end-game.

 

I'm not saying 20 nm maddags are realistic, or not. All I'm saying is that not being able to lock up anything with the APG-63 is a much bigger problem.

 

Basic jammer design? :) Flankly I don't even care. It has nothing to do with all this whining. And if you don't like it, why aren't you doing something about it? I did - and I don't mean just the post in the beta forums.

 

What is there to do? ED currently has their hands tied - I'll bug them later, be sure.

 

Yes, and the most REALISTIC way to fight a flanker or mig is to push shorter range. Why, that's straight from the lips of VVS pilots. So ... whose stuff is better?

 

The F-15C's. It's a late 90s weapons platform fighting against early 80s tech, for crying out loud. Make no mistake, the Russian stuff will still have an affect on the Eagle's game, but the F-15C should still be able to fight BVR like it's supposed to. Being relegated to 6 nm for a radar lock is ridiculous.

 

Currently, BVR in LOMAC is a joke in terms of realism - I'll rank it just above Jane's USAF and Strike Fighters. Just accepting this "as is" is a mistake - we need to at least recognize the faults so that ED can improve on them.

[Kindred]

Um, an attack against an unsuspecting target? The *perfect* engagement is the one where the target doesn't get any warning until the AMRAAM lights him up in the end-game.

 

I'm not saying 20 nm maddags are realistic, or not. All I'm saying is that not being able to lock up anything with the APG-63 is a much bigger problem.

 

 

 

What is there to do? ED currently has their hands tied - I'll bug them later, be sure.

 

 

 

The F-15C's. It's a late 90s weapons platform fighting against early 80s tech, for crying out loud. Make no mistake, the Russian stuff will still have an affect on the Eagle's game, but the F-15C should still be able to fight BVR like it's supposed to. Being relegated to 6 nm for a radar lock is ridiculous.

 

Currently, BVR in LOMAC is a joke in terms of realism - I'll rank it just above Jane's USAF and Strike Fighters. Just accepting this "as is" is a mistake - we need to at least recognize the faults so that ED can improve on them.

 

 

Your my hero lol :D

[GGTharos]

The Sorbitsyia is updated independently of the flanker.

The MiG-29S internal jammer likely also receives some software updates.

In any case, like I said ... I have -never- had problems locking up a target inside BT, UNLESS they were low and beaming.

[Guest IguanaKing]

You can vanish off an F-15's radar if you cycles it every 2-4 sec (about the time it takes to rescan your position). It won't work if the F-15 pilot doesn't cooperate ... meaning ... if he stops trying to lock you up, and narrows the azimuth, he can track you until you come within burn-through range and then lock you up proper.

 

Yup. I don't want anybody to cooperate with me either, its supposed to be simulated combat. :thumbup: The ECM bursts I use are just to break a lock and buy me a second or two to take evasive action. I turn it on for just a few seconds while I change direction and altitude. How about notching the F-15s radar when he has you in a look-up situation? Technically, we could call that an exploit and demand that everybody stop using it. :smilewink: :D

[GGTharos]

I think people should stop dodging AMRAAMs ... :D

[Willy p.]

If not, its an exploit by definition and a form of cheating.

 

Also;

 

"Types of exploits

• AFK gaming

 

So according to you “Prophet” turning on my jammed then counting to five in my head (not thinking about it) and turning it off then five count again then on again is an “Exploit”? And using my thumb to do this is an AFK Gaming cheat? Because “Wikipedia” defines AFK gaming as this:

 

AFK (Away From Keyboard) gaming is a technique used typically by multiplayer online role-playing gamers, but also can be theoretically used by any other game genre. AFK gamers use software, either in the form of a bot or a game's built-in macro system, to continuously do a repetitive task for them, over and over. It also gives the player a significant competitive edge against other players.

 

So mussel memory (human software)+(using my thumb without thinking about it) (macro) is now considered a built-in macro. I throw myself at the mercy of the court…it’s true…I’m a cheater!

[Alfa]

...Another one would be to automate ECM - ie. turning on ECM turn on the whole system, with a corresponding warm-up time (say 1-2 sec) and shut down time ... your jammer then sits quiet until you are locked, and when locked, it turns on and stays on until un-locked. Simplest jammer logic possible, and the 'warm up' and 'shut down' times prevent manual blinking at the ridiculous intervals certain people program into their HOTAS.

 

I fully agree GG :)

 

The type of ECM(deception jamming) employed by fighter aircraft is controlled by the RWS and there really should be no manual operation of the jamming station other than switching it on(to stand-by mode), so apart from solving this online issue, it would also be a step in the right direction as far as realism is concerned.

[gundelgauk]

Recently I've been subject to blinking a few times, usually it was done by members of some squads, no less.

 

Luckily I had read about this on the forum before, in another thread, so I knew what was happening. Usually when I saw it, I tried to get a radar contact or lock for about 30 seconds, then just typed "lol, blinker" on the chat, Split S and fled with full afterburner.

 

Because Ok, maybe it can be defeated but frankly I'm not good enough to evade 6 missiles while getting close enough to the other guy to even get a lock on him.

 

So basically yes, it somewhat ruins the engagement for me.

[GGTharos]

Recently I've been subject to blinking a few times, usually it was done by members of some squads, no less.

 

Oh, how terrible!

 

Luckily I had read about this on the forum before, in another thread, so I knew what was happening. Usually when I saw it, I tried to get a radar contact or lock for about 30 seconds, then just typed "lol, blinker" on the chat, Split S and fled with full afterburner.

 

Because Ok, maybe it can be defeated but frankly I'm not good enough to evade 6 missiles while getting close enough to the other guy to even get a lock on him.

 

So basically yes, it somewhat ruins the engagement for me.

 

 

So ... 'blink' back. You don't even need to do it particularly often.

[gundelgauk]

Oh, how terrible!

I was not trying to flame or whine, Sir. I was merely trying to contribute my opinion on a public forum.

 

Notice that I haven't said a single word about the exploit/not exploit issue you guys are arguing about.

 

So ... 'blink' back. You don't even need to do it particularly often.

I was expecting this response. No, I will not use this tactic. While I agree that we're at war on the servers and every measure should be taken in order to win, I find myself extremely frustrated because of people doing this. And since I don't want to unnecessarily frustrate other people, I will refrain from using this. I do realize that I'm a fool because of this, too.

[GGTharos]

I was not trying to flame or whine, Sir. I was merely trying to contribute my opinion on a public forum.

 

Notice that I haven't said a single word about the exploit/not exploit issue you guys are arguing about.

 

But that is what it looked like. Anyway. ;)

 

I was expecting this response. No, I will not use this tactic. While I agree that we're at war on the servers and every measure should be taken in order to win, I find myself extremely frustrated because of people doing this. And since I don't want to unnecessarily frustrate other people, I will refrain from using this. I do realize that I'm a fool because of this, too.

 

 

So ... they try to frustrate you with it, but you're too nice to frustrate them back? At least use it on people who do it to you! Come on! ;)

This is an absurd attitude! It's like saying 'I'm not going to F-Pole because it makes it harder for the other guy - even though he is F-Poling' ... /quite/ literally. It's like not using your chaff, too, because it makes radar missile miss.

 

There's a fairly easy way to avoid being frustrated by this: Stop trying to lock him until you're at burn through. Then you'll be able to track him without getting frustrated about your lock dropping.

[gundelgauk]

But that is what it looked like. Anyway. ;)

I'm sorry, that was not my intention.

 

So ... they try to frustrate you with it, but you're too nice to frustrate them back? At least use it on people who do it to you! Come on! ;)

In essence, yes. Because I like to think that those people are in fact not trying to annoy me but only trying to win. It's just a difference in principle: They will use every last measure in order to win. I will try to avoid using measures that tend to overly frustrate others because after all, this is a game and everyone (not only me) is trying to have fun.

 

 

This is an absurd attitude! It's like saying 'I'm not going to F-Pole because it makes it harder for the other guy - even though he is F-Poling' ... /quite/ literally. It's like not using your chaff, too, because it makes radar missile miss.

I don't quite agree with this. The things you describe have a lot to do with knowledge, skill and practice. This is (imho) what this game is about. "Blinking" ECM does not require any skill and it's questionable whether being able to do so was intended by the developers (sorry, I seriously do not want to enter the exploit vs. not-exploit flamewar). And it tends to prevent me from employing or practicing the techniques that you mentioned.

 

 

There's a fairly easy way to avoid being frustrated by this: Stop trying to lock him until you're at burn through.

Well, that's easy for you to say. ;) See:

Ok, maybe it can be defeated but frankly I'm not good enough to evade 6 missiles while getting close enough to the other guy to even get a lock on him.

[GGTharos]

I'm sorry, that was not my intention.

 

 

In essence, yes. Because I like to think that those people are in fact not trying to annoy me but only trying to win. It's just a difference in principle: They will use every last measure in order to win. I will try to avoid using measures that tend to overly frustrate others because after all, this is a game and everyone (not only me) is trying to have fun.

 

I wouldn't worry about that too much; I mean, I'm pushing for a fix but until then ... see below (and don't get me wrong, I'm just laying out my reasoning and opinion)

 

I don't quite agree with this. The things you describe have a lot to do with knowledge, skill and practice. This is (imho) what this game is about. "Blinking" ECM does not require any skill and it's questionable whether being able to do so was intended by the developers (sorry, I seriously do not want to enter the exploit vs. not-exploit flamewar).

 

Correct, blinking ECM requires no skill. Neither does the use of real ECM (in fact, you don't even touch real ECM beyond 'turning it on' ... it then does it's job on its own). However! This 'blinking' will prevent shots on you AND your opponent (since I am assuming both are doing it) until burn-through (about 25km) at which point you need a LOT more skill to deal with the opponent than at longer ranges.

 

Well, that's easy for you to say. ;) See:

 

 

Hehe, well, see my above. 'Blink' and no missiles for you to deal with until you're in close :D

[gundelgauk]

This 'blinking' will prevent shots on you AND your opponent (since I am assuming both are doing it) until burn-through (about 25km) at which point you need a LOT more skill to deal with the opponent than at longer ranges.

[...]

Hehe, well, see my above. 'Blink' and no missiles for you to deal with until you're in close :D

Heh, sure, I get your point!

 

I guess my problem is that I have been a BVR fan since EF2000 and trying to get in close doesn't feel right for me unless I'm out of BVR weapons. The fact that I suck at dogfights doesn't help either, lol. :lol: This blinking makes BVR next to impossible however, more so when both parties use it.

 

I feel that this "blinking" should not be possible. I admit, I have next to no knowledge about real radar or ECM systems, but it just doesn't feel like it's supposed to be that way to me. And it has the potential to ruin a part of the game, at least for me.

[GGTharos]

Real ECM may or may not work this way; there's nothing saying it can't - it's not properly simulated in LO in /any/ case ... as I said, it'll be fixed, until then ...

 

Also, 25km is still pretty BVR, and at low altitudes you can't shoot farther anyway :) So, just kill him before you merge - you have a whole 25km to go!

[gundelgauk]

Also, 25km is still pretty BVR, and at low altitudes you can't shoot farther anyway :) So, just kill him before you merge - you have a whole 25km to go!

Yes, I've been mentally noting all the tips in this thread for defeating this tactic, so thanks for that. Of course I realize that as long as it's possible to do it, people will do it. I just need to adapt.

 

I guess the bottom line of what I was trying to say is: I've seen it, I don't like it and I'd like to see it fixed. ;)

[GGTharos]

I understand. It's on the list; I have asked for ED to put some priority on it, but of course just 'cause I asked means nothing :D

But they did say they will look into it.

 

But, also remember! The purpose of ECM /IS/ to make BVR much harder! (And in some RL cases ... you can fly within 2km of the enemy and the jammer will still make the missile miss!)

[Anytime]

There is no "may" about it, they definetly don't work this way :D

 

Real ECM may or may not work this way; there's nothing saying it can't - it's not properly simulated in LO in /any/ case ... as I said, it'll be fixed, until then ...

 

Also, 25km is still pretty BVR, and at low altitudes you can't shoot farther anyway :) So, just kill him before you merge - you have a whole 25km to go!

[GGTharos]

In some cases its appropriate ... the 'blink even 1/10th second' isn't. It's certainly not appropriate to trigger the jammer at ALL unless you are locked onto.

[Prophet]

So according to you “Prophet” turning on my jammed then counting to five in my head (not thinking about it) and turning it off then five count again then on again is an “Exploit”? And using my thumb to do this is an AFK Gaming cheat? Because “Wikipedia” defines AFK gaming as this:

 

AFK (Away From Keyboard) gaming is a technique used typically by multiplayer online role-playing gamers, but also can be theoretically used by any other game genre. AFK gamers use software, either in the form of a bot or a game's built-in macro system, to continuously do a repetitive task for them, over and over. It also gives the player a significant competitive edge against other players.

 

So mussel memory (human software)+(using my thumb without thinking about it) (macro) is now considered a built-in macro. I throw myself at the mercy of the court…it’s true…I’m a cheater!

 

Didnt know you used a bot to fly. Shame on you.

[gundelgauk]

I understand. It's on the list; I have asked for ED to put some priority on it

That's very good! I'm really hoping they will adjust this in some way.

 

but of course just 'cause I asked means nothing :D

I lol'd. Let's hope this is not the case. ;)

 

But, also remember! The purpose of ECM /IS/ to make BVR much harder! (And in some RL cases ... you can fly within 2km of the enemy and the jammer will still make the missile miss!)

Wow, that's extreme, I didn't know that.

 

Thinking about it, back in EF2000 the jammer was so effective that it was sure to make radar missiles miss almost 100%, at least in earlier versions of the game. I'm getting all off topic now however.

[GGTharos]

It really depends on the jammer; the one I described would be mounted on a bomber, like a B-52, and has indeed been shown to be extremely effective (at least, unless you have some sort of ECCM to cope with it, which you may or may NOT have ... these huge, powerful jammers make it downright hard to realize you're being jammed to begin with)

 

Fighter SPJ's are not quite as powerful or 'clean', but they could do a number of you, too - at the very least, they'll make your life harder.

 

(BTW, does that give you some insight as to the R-27T/ET's real purpose? ;) )

[gundelgauk]

(BTW, does that give you some insight as to the R-27T/ET's real purpose? ;) )

Yes I think I know what you're talking about! Makes a lot of sense.

 

powerful jammers make it downright hard to realize you're being jammed to begin with

That stuff fascinates me beyond belief. Do you have any links for me about the technology, please?

 

 

Sorry for derailing the thread like this.