Shiny vs Reflective vs Clean???

[==Wiggy==]

Was brought up in another post here...so which one is which? Shiny, reflective or Clean? Here is a 3 part sabre. Paint, Chrome/silver-ish, and shiny...what do you say is what? And how can you tell from Black and white photos (I can)? Something that is debated hotly in any forum I've ever been to regarding classic jets and their finish. I've had seen this in the FSX/P3D forums so many times, and wanted to show some examples of what makes it so difficult to simply point at a photo and say "see, you can clearly see here..." But keeping it all on the up and up. Just friendly chatter here, no one is a loser, we're all going to come out learning something including me, I can guarantee that! :pilotfly:

 

 

 

[Reflected]

I'd go for the middle-road. I think it's spot on. The very reflective one becomes too dark because it reflects the surroundings too much. Perhaps I would also make the middle of the wings a bit more reflective. I like the difference, but I'd maybe tone it down a bit, to make it less pronunced.

[Strut]

Its all in the eye of the beholder, im about to re-release some of my old Sabre skins,but im going to make some of them ultra shiny, why ? because i want to. But i gues until we all see what happens with everything once DCS becomes settled with settings and lighting the old / young eyes will see things differently, people will have opinions and some will like some wont. Im just going to do what i like and take advice when it is warranted.

[SkateZilla]

Aircraft were not Polished/Buffed until they were Airshow Performers.

 

Buffing the Aircraft would only cause excessive sun glare/reflections and give away your position.

 

Now, They DID Strip paint off the Aircraft in 1943->Korea, Removing the Paint allowed for Higher Speeds.

In P-51's Case 8-23MPH, However these were raw metal, they did not polish, buff or seal the surfaces to make them Mirror Like.

[==Wiggy==]

Yes I hear you both. I should have said this is less about how should you or I paint the aircraft, and more about what it looks like in any 'state' (matte shiny reflective etc.). I should have also clarified the images with a description of what is going on. This is just an example of what different settings can produce (not me asking for you prefer I use)...

 

So with that said, you can see that there an aluminum aircraft with 2 strips in the middle. The first one move aft from nose to tail, is a a grey "paint" strip. It's matte and non reflective. I've removed the effort so as to not clutter the view of the clean paint. Aft of this is a strip of polished aluminum (some might call it chrome or silver painted). To my abilities and knowledge, what you see in this area is the MAXIMUM reflection the Sabre model is able to produce in the sim. I've tried to couple an appropriate level of specular light reflection with it. This would be your "airshow" polished skin.

 

A quick note about this. None of my Liveries use this level of reflection or specularity. This is is about 20-25% darker in the blue channel than mine. And about 10-15% brighter in the red channel. And 5-10% darker in the green channel. Which is is quite a bit! My "Clean" skins are supposed to represent just clean aluminum. New enough to not be oxidized but old enjoy to have some flights understand it's belt. I should also note that your mileage will carry on the amount of contrast you have in the darkness of your images based on what your individual Hanna settings in the sim are.

 

I very much agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Which is part of the reason I appreciate the work of others. I really enjoy seeing others interpretations of what something looks like... In this case the Sabre.

Edited March 7, 2018 by 000rick000

[Strut]

Aircraft were not Polished/Buffed until they were Airshow Performers.

 

Buffing the Aircraft would only cause excessive sun glare/reflections and give away your position.

 

Now, They DID Strip paint off the Aircraft in 1943->Korea, Removing the Paint allowed for Higher Speeds.

In P-51's Case 8-23MPH, However these were raw metal, they did not polish, buff or seal the surfaces to make them Mirror Like.

 

Yes what you say is true.

 

Yes I hear you both. I should have said this is less about how should you or I paint the aircraft, and more about what it looks like in any 'state' (matte shiny reflective etc.). I should have also clarified the images with a description of what is going on. This is just an example of what different settings can produce (not me asking for you prefer I use)...

 

So with that said, you can see that there an aluminum aircraft with 2 strips in the middle. The first one move aft from nose to tail, is a a grey "paint" strip. It's matte and non reflective. I've removed the effort so as to not clutter the view of the clean paint. Aft of this is a strip of polished aluminum (some might call it chrome or silver painted). To my abilities and knowledge, what you see in this area is the MAXIMUM reflection the Sabre model is able to produce in the sim. I've tried to couple an appropriate level of specular light reflection with it. This would be your "airshow" polished skin.

 

A quick note about this. None of my Liveries use this level of reflection or specularity. This is is about 20-25% darker in the blue channel than mine. And about 10-15% brighter in the red channel. And 5-10% darker in the green channel. Which is is quite a bit! My "Clean" skins are supposed to represent just clean aluminum. New enough to not be oxidized but old enjoy to have some flights understand it's belt. I should also note that your mileage will carry on the amount of contrast you have in the darkness of your images based on what your individual Hanna settings in the sim are.

 

I very much agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Which is part of the reason I appreciate the work of others. I really enjoy seeing others interpretations of what something looks like... In this case the Sabre.

 

 

I have always preferred and enjoyed authenticity, especially with the Sabre skins, but this time round im just playing with the possibilities because we can ( its a sim). But, by the by, also for me 30 years as a professional soldier its hard to not stay authentic and true to the AC's real form. It does rub the wrong way when something military is represented incorrectly.

[Robert31178]

But they did wax the airframes, at least during WWII they did on the not painted Jugs and Mustangs. I do a fair bit of reading and the hot pilots usually include a bit about how the ground crew cared so much for the pilots' safety that they would carefully fill or or make flush blemishes with wax, then wax coat overall, in an effort to squeeze a few extra knots out of the plane by making it a little more aerodynamic then maybe the next guy. There's no way this wouldn't shine the airframe up considerably. Now, this may have been only in WWII, as I have only read a handful of books by Korean War veterans; by the time Mustangs and Jugs went shiny the USAAF had around a 5 to 1 numerical advantage over enemy fighters should they come across them, and being seen really didn't matter, and may have even carried a certain degree of intimidation while displaying said numerical advantage by just being there.

 

I personally think the middle of the road finish is the best looking on the Sabres as well, although I will fly any of them since the plane is just so dang sexy!

[==Wiggy==]

Yes, I'm in for authentic all the way. I hear that. Robert very interesting about the wax. Didn't know they did that. I wonder if it actually worked, or if it worked against the pilots by adding additional skin friction drag from a dissimilar material and disturbed the laminar flow? Interesting indeed! I'll have to follow up with some reading of my own as well. Thanks for sharing this.

 

Here's a few of the better examples of just how reflective the Sabres could be...there's also many images that show the exact opposite, I know. If you look at Image 1 & 2 below you can see in the fuselage that the cloud layer is clearly reflected with some good detail. (You can also see the white paint on the wing that I've opted to reference in some of my paints). I imagine that many photos (color or BW) depends on the camera settings how well they capture the image even TOD can play a factor or environment conditions (overcast sky vs severe clear) for how well the image captures the reflections. You can imagine that up close that would be a fairly good resolution of the surroundings.

 

This obviously isn't the case with say photo no. 3 below. where it appears that the Aluminum has been oxidizing a while without treatment. However, the interesting thing about this photo is that the wing is very reflective, reflecting perfectly the unit strips on the fuselage and tail, and the equipment. So, it almost begs the questions, if you look at the environment, it's very hazy/cloudy, and looks like a lower sun angle, could be that there's simply not anything of detail to reflect in the fuselage...(I think it's likely it's not very reflective) but if you look at the top of the fuselage you can see the dark blue/grey of the sky or clouds above...so it's still getting some, enough for capturing color of the material.

 

Image No. 4 though, is a very sneaky one. On first inspection doesn't look all that reflective, but if you look at the aft fuselage, you'll notice that it is actually reflecting the the tarmac and shoveled snow bank from across the way in very good detail. Sky conditions don't look like they provide much contrast so there's not much color tone change in the fuselage.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by 000rick000

[Strut]

Great examples there Rick. It just goes to show that reality is full of contradictions as opposed to peoples perceptions of what actually went on. I love it.

[==Wiggy==]

Thanks Strut, here's a few more great photos that i've found while searching. Also leads me to believe that the white/light grey areas on the wing upper surface were more common than un-common.

 

 

 

[==Wiggy==]

Sorry, this has kind of turned into a research thread! Haha. But, nevertheless, very fun!

 

 

[Art-J]

To me the aforementioned wing area always seemed to be silver (painted/less polished alclad sheets?) rather than grey. Similar to exactly the same thing on centerwing and fuselage section of B-29 Superforts, supplied by different plant than the rest of components.

[==Wiggy==]

Art-J, yes, I'm not sure. But there's something to that. Some images look as if the off colored part is semi gloss, while others look more matted... And others still don't have it at all! It is a finicky little detail! It's definitely been rewarding to do more research on the aircraft. Ive found a treasure trove of new images I've not seen in the net previously, high quality large scans. It has really got the inspiration juices flowing!

[firmek]

I imagine that many photos (color or BW) depends on the camera settings how well they capture the image even TOD can play a factor or environment conditions (overcast sky vs severe clear) for how well the image captures the reflections. You can imagine that up close that would be a fairly good resolution of the surroundings.

That's fully correct. A short exposure time during a sunny day will reduce depth of reflective objects. Contrary, a long exposure will increase it. Similar variable is the angle from which the photo is taken from, the smaller the angle the more reflective the surface will seem.

 

It’s quite ironic as in a sunny days a shiny surfaces may not show on a photo so much depth due to a short exposure time.

 

In other words, just take a camera, set a long exposure time and make the photo as much parallel to the surface and the result can be a mirror like surface, much more reflective than it may seem in reality:

 

This obviously isn't the case with say photo no. 3 below. where it appears that the Aluminum has been oxidizing a while without treatment. However, the interesting thing about this photo is that the wing is very reflective, reflecting perfectly the unit strips on the fuselage and tail, and the equipment.

 

The wings seem more reflective as they are pictured from a low angle while the main airframe is shoot almost perpendiculary.

Edited March 9, 2018 by firmek