What are most likely the reasons for Dassault to only design DDM on M2000C to ...

[D4n]

... to only detect anything below the aircraft, not all aspect? (behind and above is VERY important when being chased by aircraft with R-73 / R-27T.....)

Anyone has any ideas?

[D4n]

As seen here:

 

[D4n]

That's a huuuuge weakness of M2000C DDM.....

[feefifofum]

From what I understand, the DDM was technically not installed on the C models at all...it is a D model feature designed to detect surface-launched missile threats. The system is attached to the Magic II pylons, which is why it has a limited FOV.

[D4n]

ah wow! ok :) You from Razbam btw?

[myHelljumper]

DDM was designed as an answer to manpad threats, it's not useful in a air-air situation.

[D4n]

roger.

[jojo]

The DDM was in development by the industry. It didn't receive much attention form official services (funding shortage) until a Mirage 2000N has been shot down by a MANPAD over Bosnia on August 30th 1995.

 

Then the DDM was fielded on Mirage 2000N and Mirage 2000D.

[al531246]

Then the DDM was fielded on Mirage 2000N and Mirage 2000D.

 

 

...and M-2000C.

[GGTharos]

Nope... It was specifically not fielded on the 2000C. The capability was added but not assigned. Essentially all DDM systems were purchased for and employed on the other variants.

[D4n]

"all DDM systems" ? How many different M2000 DDM Versions are there? And were DDMs so expensive to produce? (Material costs, production processes?)

[GGTharos]

Are military systems generally cheap to produce?

 

M2Ks aren't expected to deal with MANPADS so much since they're far less likely to fly in the weeds.

[D4n]

But the 2 DDMs are so small xD and what about R-27T/ET, Dassault never expected M2000 to fight against an airforce that has those missiles?

[GGTharos]

What about using you and your wingman eyeballs and some preventive measures? :D

 

The real world is not air quake.

[D4n]

Well as soon as you're in a 1 vs 2 and I turn 180° and try to outrun enemy MiG-29S towards an allied air base (SAM cover) and he shoots an R-27T at me? ;) (I wasn't in VR at that time, but yes, with VR I could've moved my head sideways and looked behind.)

[GGTharos]

Well as soon as you're in a 1 vs 2 and I turn 180° and try to outrun enemy MiG-29S towards an allied air base (SAM cover) and he shoots an R-27T at me? ;) (I wasn't in VR at that time, but yes, with VR I could've moved my head sideways and looked behind.)

Ok, I see that we are not communicating well so I will rephrase:

 

The simulator attempts to simulate real aircraft with their limitations, not your in game needs. If you insist on flying alone that's your problem ... If you don't have a head tracker that's also your problem.

 

Both of those are not an issue for a real air force :)

Edited March 10, 2018 by GGTharos

[D4n]

aaaah yes true! got ya.

[jojo]

From the ECM panel, with D²M switch, we can guess that provisions were to accommodate a DDM at a later date. Prototypes were being worked on.

But often in military program, options get scrapped to save money.

 

DDM was only procured in limited quantities for Mirage 2000N & D which were more likely to deal with MANPADs.

Bosnia was an "eye opener" for that threat.

We got an Etendard IV P hit who had to trap on the aircraft carrier using pitch trim control.

A Mirage IV P had a MANPAD which impacted the fuselage between the 2 engine without detonating.

And the Mirage 2000N which went down.

 

So far no evidence of DDM on Mirage 2000C RDI.

But a lot of player seem to use the module as MUD rather than air defense fighter.

Let's say it's a gift for them.

[D4n]

"had to trap on the aircraft carrier using pitch trim control." what does trap mean?

What does MUD stand for?

 

Thanks for all the information so far!

[gabuzomeu]

Hello,

Sorry for the french :-)

Trap is landing on aircraft carrier

MUD refers to ground attack planes in French air force parlance ( as they are active down in the mud)

[D4n]

aaah wow! Did Mirage 2000N pilot survive?

[jojo]

aaah wow! Did Mirage 2000N pilot survive?

 

Yes, both pilot and WSO ejected and survived.

But one of them was injured to the knee on landing, and both were captured by Serbian troops.

Eventually they were released, but they spent some unpleasant weeks to say the least.

 

Serbian SAM crew were pretty good, they also downed Sea Harrier (April 16th 1994), 2 US F-16 (June 2nd 1995 & May 2nd 1999*) and F-117 (March 27th 1999).

 

By the way, "MUD" for attack aircraft is rather NATO slang than French Air Force.

 

*Edit

Edited March 10, 2018 by jojo

[al531246]

Nope... It was specifically not fielded on the 2000C. The capability was added but not assigned. Essentially all DDM systems were purchased for and employed on the other variants.

 

The capability is for the entire M-2000 family. It plugs into and aids the EW suite of the aircraft. I believe the system is called 'ICMS', it includes the following;

- High-band radar jammer

- Spirale chaff/flare dispenser

- SAT DDM IR missile detector

 

I'm fairly certain it was fielded on the C in Bosnia, there are a couple magazine / newspaper articles floating around confirming so.

[jojo]

The capability is for the entire M-2000 family. It plugs into and aids the EW suite of the aircraft. I believe the system is called 'ICMS', it includes the following;

- High-band radar jammer

- Spirale chaff/flare dispenser

- SAT DDM IR missile detector

 

I'm fairly certain it was fielded on the C in Bosnia, there are a couple magazine / newspaper articles floating around confirming so.

 

It isn't plug & play. I found a publication of Gerrelec (French association affiliated to "Old Crows", electronic warfare specialist association) which specify an upgrade to Mirage 2000N ICMS for DDM.

 

So far I only found 1 press article talking about DDM on Mirage 2000C, but no other to confirm, and no picture of it. Which is weird, it isn't a top secret device.

I would be grateful if you could share you sources about it.

Edited March 10, 2018 by jojo

[al531246]

It isn't plug & play. I found a publication of Gerrelec (French association affiliated to "Old Crows", electronic warfare specialist association) which specify an upgrade to Mirage 2000N ICMS for DDM.

 

So far I only found 1 press article talking about DDM on Mirage 2000C, but no other to confirm, and no picture of it. Which is weird, it isn't a top secret device.

I would be grateful if you could share you sources about it.

 

ICMS is the name of the EW suite. There are various version numbers in service. With the ICMS upgrade installed the DDM is as you put it 'plug and play'.

 

The ICMS upgrade package included the Spirale dispenser - the chaff and flare pod on the aircraft where the wings meet the body. Any aircraft that has the Spirale dispenser is equipped / was equipped / is ready to be equipped with the DDM. Any Mirage without the Spirale (most French AF Mirages were upgraded) dispenser has not had the ICMS upgrade and as such cannot use the DDM.

 

As for real life fielding it only makes sense that they would mostly be operational on D and N variants. These are the ground attack variants that would most endangered by MANPADS and that's what the system is designed to protect against (60d elevation, 180d in azimuth).

 

The M-2000C in game has the Spirale dispenser thus it has had the ICMS upgrade and is DDM compatible.