Question relating to TILS in Nellis and other bugs

[TOViper]

Hello folks,

 

Is there something wrong with the ILS in Nellis?

I'm asking because I have flown several missions in the Viggen Red Flag campaign in the last days and noticed some strange behavior with the ILS in Nellis. See the attached video what is happening on my machine. In fact the symbol (line + circle looking like a "P") changes to a "lolly" immediately when switching runway heading. See the video at 1:03.

 

 

 

I discovered some other issues too,

 

<EDIT START 2018-03-27> : This issue doesn't relate directly to Red Flag Campaign, but to general behaviour of Nevada map and the mission in the video made in the mission editor. <EDIT END>

L/MAL & CK:

Waypoint 2 is "Landing" at Nellis. Obviously this is stored in the data card as L1 and(!) L2 (and not L1 only as I expected). When now (lets assume accidentally) entering 9004 via keyboard (at 0:29, the numbers are not shown on the display which is strange too) and pressing L/MAL this is recognized by the CK. But it changed something, which can be seen a few seconds later: L1 now changed to some airfield over 40 mils to the left which I consider wrong behavior (I perfomed this step a few times in separate missions to make sure I didn't do any typing mistake).

 

KNEEBOARD:

Next, the standard knee board information for Nellis is wrong, there is a "5" missing in the VHF frequency for Nellis. It says to set 132.5 MHz, but true is 132.550 MHz!

 

SOUND (related to the red flag campaing only):

Another bug I found is with the sounds. When flying missions of the red flag campaign, the sound of my aircraft after entering the cockpit comes about 5 to 6 minutes after mission start (this relates to all sounds produced by the aircraft like engine, warning, etc.). Other sounds can be heard normally (other aircraft, radio, ...).

 

OK, so far so good, I'll stop here for the moment.

Edited March 28, 2018 by TOViper
Had to add something to make clear which issues relate to Red Flag and which not

[San Patricio]

Hello folks,

 

SOUND:

Another bug I found is with the sounds. When flying missions of the red flag campaign, the sound of my aircraft after entering the cockpit comes about 5 to 6 minutes after mission start (this relates to all sounds produced by the aircraft like engine, warning, etc.). Other sounds can be heard normally (other aircraft, radio, ...).

 

OK, so far so good, I'll stop here for the moment.

 

I'll second this bit on the sounds. Not sure I ever figured out the pattern, but flying the Viggen in 2.5 I've had sounds cut in and out exactly as described above.

 

I've also had some odd results with the TILS in the Caucasus map and the course indicator getting stuck or pinned but I haven't sat down to document them or sort out whether it's me or the system that's at fault.

[Emilio_Ger]

I can confirm the sound thing too. Happens to me aswell when playing the red flag campaign.

[spetsnaz26]

as far as the L1 L2 thing, having played most of the Red Flag missions, I think most of the time L1 is placed at Lincoln County airport. Note that briefings mention first landing at Lincoln, refuel, and then ferry to Nellis. I never bothered flying back to Nellis, but at least can report that you are supposed to return first to that northern airport close to the marshalling orbit rather than going back directly to Nellis. I do recall one mission where pressing L MAL button took me back to Nellis directly for some reason.

 

Second the sound problem. Close the canopy and only some in-cockpit control sound effects and radio chatter can be heard. Seems not to be Red Flag or NTTR-specific. Recall having same problem in the mini campaign in Caucasus as well.

[Eldur]

I've also had some odd results with the TILS in the Caucasus map and the course indicator getting stuck or pinned but I haven't sat down to document them or sort out whether it's me or the system that's at fault.

 

I noticed Senaki-Kolkhi being totally off-course. It's 0/180° on TILS now in 2.5. Didn't check other ABs yet.

[Quip]

TOViper

 

A few facts about the TILS

- It only works to one side of each runway. This is a bug. In real life, there is one TILS-truck (or installation) where the TILS is supposed to work. The TILS then only emits in one direction. The games TILS is only placed at one end, but emits bi-directionally!

- In LNAV the Viggen adds a virtual "B" point called "LB". This point is situated some 22km from the TILS emitter and the nav system guides you to this additional B point. This turn is shown on the CI as the "q". Your ADI and steering info on the HUD guides you there. The CI always points to the runway center.

- Once you're at the LB point, The system switches over to LF (Final) and guides you in a shallow-ish turn towards the extended centerline to catch the TILS. The system switches over to LF (Final)

- If you're already inside the TIL emitters range, the system omits LB and goes to LF directly. In practice in the game, this happens even if you're far from the TILS emitter as long as you're more or less aligned with the runway.

- You set up the system in this way: First airport, then runway, then approach mode.

 

So let's look at your approach.

1:05 you have activated TILS for runway 04. The system is in LNAV and gives you steering guidance to LB at the far end of the "q" with a right hand 180 deg turn to the runway centerline (the tail of the q).

1:15 By switching rnw to 22 the system (or game) notices you're on centerline to rnw 22 and so it switches to LF.

1:30 You have now switched the system back to rnw 04, but since you flip-flopped, the LNAV isn't reset to LB mode, so you're now in LF. Look at the last point I made above. But this isn't important in your approach as you 'll see...

4:30 Remeber what I said about the LB being some 22km from the TILS? Well see, now you're at 20 km and the TILS is captured. But you're way too high. at LB/20km you're supposed to be at 500m / 550km/h. If you follow the reference lines and steering cues on HUD/ADI this will be correct.

4:55 Perfect distance for gear down, but way too high

5:25 Here's the crucial point. The HUD has now added the dropped horizontal lione to show the glide angle at 2.8 deg. Now, if you had stayed in LNAV and rnw 22, the system in the game would have brought you to a perfect approach to the *far end* of the runway - THIS is the bug! But you didn't. Rather, you switched to LP/O. Now, for an LNAV you never go to LP/O. LP/O is the manual system and by switching to it you're telling the system "I want no TILS thank you very much!" LP/O is used for visual appoaches when a TILS isnät available or for go-arounds. So, again refering to the last item on the list above: decide before if you're doing a guided approach (LNAV) or visial (LP/O).

 

The rest of your approach is pretty perfect. I love how you rode the AOA the last 15 s, really good. I'd add that irl if you do a full reversed landing you normally also setup the AOA to 15.5 deg by clicking on the small button below the autopilot, but that's minor.

 

I hope this explains it all for you.

[TOViper]

TOViper

I'd add that irl if you do a full reversed landing you normally also setup the AOA to 15.5 deg by clicking on the small button below the autopilot, but that's minor. I hope this explains it all for you.

 

Hello Quip,

 

Sorry for being late with my response, but somehow I flew over this topic not recognizing YOUR response. :music_whistling:

 

First many thanks for your detailed analysis, which collects and summarizes so many aspects in one piece :) I really appreciate that, thank you!

Also many thanks to the other guys for their inputs!

 

I usually avoid flying with 15.5° aoa, since the HUD symbology is then not visible anymore with my view setup. I never experienced problems with runway length (despite I sometimes land on streets). I found out that flying at this aoa the whole landing phase is somehow "tightened" and needs much more of my attention, since the margin to deep stall is lower. Flying at windy conditions and/or thermals would thighten the thing again more.

I also found out the AFK is not as good as I thought, since it has a longer response in adding fuel in case aoa increases fast, and then "overshoots" the required fuel flow which may result in a too low aoa and overshooting the touch down zone. But I must admit that I didn't train this too much, maybe with some more training it would get better and better.

I would love to have a job called: "full time DCS Viggen pilot", payment 3000 bucks per month, instead of beeing something else :P