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Av8b and the mk20 cluster bombs.


Kaned Dragon

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How exactly do I set this burst height and Nose&tail fusing?

 

N/T fusing is set by the fuzing-knob (Manual: Page 81: Reference 6: "Manual Control"), and not by the switch (Fuzing Control).

 

I do too wonder how to set burst height in the Harrier =)

 

Overall, I'd like the Mk20's to be overhauled, and a proper manual entry on them added.

 

//Jarl

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I don’t think you can at least in the cockpit. Burst height is set by munitions specialists before the pilot does the preflight. At the moment the DCS hornet and Harrier can be changed yet. It’s currently 1500’ AGL.

 

 

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Woot. N/T fusimg and higher alt release works. Splattered the crap out of a BTR column with a few mk20s.

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I beleive that burst height is set before mission, and it is fixed at 1800 in Harrier module. Fusing is done while airborne, prior to delivery. I set my to CP (CCIP delivery mode) and FUZE N/T (Nose and Tail).

MK20 is an area interdiction weapon. Not normally used in CAS mission, becouse of its area of effect. But against a column of vehicles, artillery battery, SAM site. AAA hidden in the bush, small naval targets, it is a site to behold.

In real world, cluster munitions, left a bad taste in Western nations's mouth, after OIF, and earlier after Allied Force (1999). When used, the effected area, became a nogo zone for own troops. G*d knows we need them , as our potential enemies, all heavily outnumber our forces. Still eve, professional warriors look as cluster munitions as gas was seen after WWI (The Great War To End All Wars).

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N/T fuzing on a Mk-20 with either fuze (Mk 339 or FMU-140) should result in a time-based bursting mechanism. This means it will always burst a set time after release regardless of ground proximity.

 

Yes FMU-140 HOB is set on the ground. Normally primary arming wire is set to nose fuze and option lanyard to tail fuze. This way pilot has option of primary HOB/AD delivery with N or 1.2 sec timed burst with N/T. T or none will dud.

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So you guys are using the back up arming knob?

 

I'm getting fine effects using the primary fusing options

 

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N/T fuzing on a Mk-20 with either fuze (Mk 339 or FMU-140) should result in a time-based bursting mechanism. This means it will always burst a set time after release regardless of ground proximity.

 

Yes FMU-140 HOB is set on the ground. Normally primary arming wire is set to nose fuze and option lanyard to tail fuze. This way pilot has option of primary HOB/AD delivery with N or 1.2 sec timed burst with N/T. T or none will dud.

 

Does this actually work on the RAZ harrier?

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So you guys are using the back up arming knob?

 

I'm getting fine effects using the primary fusing options

 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

I think my initial problem was using them too low. The N/T fusing works if I drop from about 3k ish AGL.

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I beleive that burst height is set before mission, and it is fixed at 1800 in Harrier module. Fusing is done while airborne, prior to delivery. I set my to CP (CCIP delivery mode) and FUZE N/T (Nose and Tail).

MK20 is an area interdiction weapon. Not normally used in CAS mission, becouse of its area of effect. But against a column of vehicles, artillery battery, SAM site. AAA hidden in the bush, small naval targets, it is a site to behold.

In real world, cluster munitions, left a bad taste in Western nations's mouth, after OIF, and earlier after Allied Force (1999). When used, the effected area, became a nogo zone for own troops. G*d knows we need them , as our potential enemies, all heavily outnumber our forces. Still eve, professional warriors look as cluster munitions as gas was seen after WWI (The Great War To End All Wars).

 

Yeah, the "highway of death" left a bad taste in alot of troops mouths after GW1. Same for ICM arty/MLRS rounds.

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I was in US Army Artillery School in mid 1990's. We had no problems or 2nd thoughts with either ICM 155mm munitions or MLRS. MLRS rockets came in two varieties. A normal variety was ICM cluster warhead. A live training and HE frag variant, had normal unitary warhead. Lots of HE encased in scoured steel for blast and frag effect. ICM had HE frag submunitions, incendiary submunitions, and MLRS variant of CBU-97 sensor fused sub-munition. All around nasty, accurate , and very effetive weapon. A single MLRS vehicle could send 12 rockets downrange in a single fire mission. Those 12 rockets could cover a grid square, of 1km X 1km. MLRS usually fired battery or battalion salvoes on single fire mission. One battery fires, while others reload and reposition. So that fire never stops for duration of fire mission order. MLRS Bn had three batteries. Some in GW1 and 2 had more as mission requires. MLRS and ATCMS was a Corps level asset. No maneuver commander below Lt. Colonel even had access, let alone authority for MLRS fire mission. If maneuver unit, air or ground, had a target, it reported and target went into database for tasking. Tasking could be distributed to Joint attack helicopters, joint tactical fixed wing air, and joint fires (MLRS and tube arty) sub-commanders. Unlike aircraft, MLRS and tube artillery are not weather dependant. All aircraft have minimums below which they cannot fly, and higher minimums below which they cannot deliver air-ground ordinance without risk of blue-on-blue. GPS munitions help, but aircraft must still get to release point. If it cannot becouse of weather , which affects fuel and refuel, and sensors, then no CAS. MLRS and artillery have no such excuses. Or there is an issue with JTAC/FAC. All Army or USMC artillery needed was a 6 digit grid for MLRS and 8 digit grid for tube. All NATO nations have same artillery procedures. As do Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Malaysia, Gulf GCC, Egypt, Israel, and OAS. Syria, India, Iran, North Korea, China, and Russia, follow artillery procedures of Soviet Union. Russia has been switching to Western MGRS, to make their systems compatible with Western systems, for sale on international defense market.

 

The highway of death in GW1 was result of a disorderly withdrawal of Iraqi forces from Kuwait. Iraqies used what was available, including civilian vehicles, busses, trucks. All bunched together with Iraqie armor and pilfered military vehicles stolen from Kuwaiti Army when it was overrun on Aug. 2-3 1990. Order from Gen. Powell's Command, was anything not friendly moving inside a designated kill box, was valid within ROE for Desert Storm. ROE changed when Iraqies started to surrender in large numbers. But RG Armor units did not, and they tried to exfiltrate back to Iraq. They were caught in open , without any Iraqi air cover, and no air defense. Powell and Shwartzkopf did not want Saddam to have any forces under his command after DS, to preclude his ouster by Iraquies, which did not happen. Thus RG caught on road were subjected to intense attack from F-15E, A-10A's, F-16's, B-1B,B-52H, Tornado, Jaguar, and even Kuwaitie Air Force A-4Ms. Without weapon restriction. It got bloody, nasty, and Iraqies were unable to surrender, even if they wanted to. Nor could they fight. All they could do is to die, or run and die. It was nasty, but it was not a war crime either. It was fortunes of war. For many Iraqies withdrawing from Kuwait, being burned, bombed, and strafed was their mis-fortune. DON'T PICK A FIGHT WITH AMERICANS OR THEIR FRIENDS!

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I was in US Army Artillery School in mid 1990's. We had no problems or 2nd thoughts with either ICM 155mm munitions or MLRS. MLRS rockets came in two varieties. A normal variety was ICM cluster warhead. A live training and HE frag variant, had normal unitary warhead. Lots of HE encased in scoured steel for blast and frag effect. ICM had HE frag submunitions, incendiary submunitions, and MLRS variant of CBU-97 sensor fused sub-munition. All around nasty, accurate , and very effetive weapon. A single MLRS vehicle could send 12 rockets downrange in a single fire mission. Those 12 rockets could cover a grid square, of 1km X 1km. MLRS usually fired battery or battalion salvoes on single fire mission. One battery fires, while others reload and reposition. So that fire never stops for duration of fire mission order. MLRS Bn had three batteries. Some in GW1 and 2 had more as mission requires. MLRS and ATCMS was a Corps level asset. No maneuver commander below Lt. Colonel even had access, let alone authority for MLRS fire mission. If maneuver unit, air or ground, had a target, it reported and target went into database for tasking. Tasking could be distributed to Joint attack helicopters, joint tactical fixed wing air, and joint fires (MLRS and tube arty) sub-commanders. Unlike aircraft, MLRS and tube artillery are not weather dependant. All aircraft have minimums below which they cannot fly, and higher minimums below which they cannot deliver air-ground ordinance without risk of blue-on-blue. GPS munitions help, but aircraft must still get to release point. If it cannot becouse of weather , which affects fuel and refuel, and sensors, then no CAS. MLRS and artillery have no such excuses. Or there is an issue with JTAC/FAC. All Army or USMC artillery needed was a 6 digit grid for MLRS and 8 digit grid for tube. All NATO nations have same artillery procedures. As do Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Malaysia, Gulf GCC, Egypt, Israel, and OAS. Syria, India, Iran, North Korea, China, and Russia, follow artillery procedures of Soviet Union. Russia has been switching to Western MGRS, to make their systems compatible with Western systems, for sale on international defense market.

 

The highway of death in GW1 was result of a disorderly withdrawal of Iraqi forces from Kuwait. Iraqies used what was available, including civilian vehicles, busses, trucks. All bunched together with Iraqie armor and pilfered military vehicles stolen from Kuwaiti Army when it was overrun on Aug. 2-3 1990. Order from Gen. Powell's Command, was anything not friendly moving inside a designated kill box, was valid within ROE for Desert Storm. ROE changed when Iraqies started to surrender in large numbers. But RG Armor units did not, and they tried to exfiltrate back to Iraq. They were caught in open , without any Iraqi air cover, and no air defense. Powell and Shwartzkopf did not want Saddam to have any forces under his command after DS, to preclude his ouster by Iraquies, which did not happen. Thus RG caught on road were subjected to intense attack from F-15E, A-10A's, F-16's, B-1B,B-52H, Tornado, Jaguar, and even Kuwaitie Air Force A-4Ms. Without weapon restriction. It got bloody, nasty, and Iraqies were unable to surrender, even if they wanted to. Nor could they fight. All they could do is to die, or run and die. It was nasty, but it was not a war crime either. It was fortunes of war. For many Iraqies withdrawing from Kuwait, being burned, bombed, and strafed was their mis-fortune. DON'T PICK A FIGHT WITH AMERICANS OR THEIR FRIENDS!

Are you talking about the same rg divisions that were effectively putting down rebellions in 14 Iraqi provinces 2 week () later? Anyway, I really enjoyed your representation.

 

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Remnants of those from Kuwait, and those that never deployed to Kuwait , but remained in Iraq to protect Saddam. POTUS H.W. Bush Administration decided to allow Iraq to keep sufficient power to counterweight Iran. But Iraqies were supposed to present Saddam hanging upside down with his genitals in his mouth. They failed to do so. This is getting too political, which is against forum rules.

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I was in US Army Artillery School in mid 1990's. We had no problems or 2nd thoughts with either ICM 155mm munitions or MLRS. MLRS rockets came in two varieties. A normal variety was ICM cluster warhead. A live training and HE frag variant, had normal unitary warhead. Lots of HE encased in scoured steel for blast and frag effect. ICM had HE frag submunitions, incendiary submunitions, and MLRS variant of CBU-97 sensor fused sub-munition. All around nasty, accurate , and very effetive weapon. A single MLRS vehicle could send 12 rockets downrange in a single fire mission. Those 12 rockets could cover a grid square, of 1km X 1km. MLRS usually fired battery or battalion salvoes on single fire mission. One battery fires, while others reload and reposition. So that fire never stops for duration of fire mission order. MLRS Bn had three batteries. Some in GW1 and 2 had more as mission requires. MLRS and ATCMS was a Corps level asset. No maneuver commander below Lt. Colonel even had access, let alone authority for MLRS fire mission. If maneuver unit, air or ground, had a target, it reported and target went into database for tasking. Tasking could be distributed to Joint attack helicopters, joint tactical fixed wing air, and joint fires (MLRS and tube arty) sub-commanders. Unlike aircraft, MLRS and tube artillery are not weather dependant. All aircraft have minimums below which they cannot fly, and higher minimums below which they cannot deliver air-ground ordinance without risk of blue-on-blue. GPS munitions help, but aircraft must still get to release point. If it cannot becouse of weather , which affects fuel and refuel, and sensors, then no CAS. MLRS and artillery have no such excuses. Or there is an issue with JTAC/FAC. All Army or USMC artillery needed was a 6 digit grid for MLRS and 8 digit grid for tube. All NATO nations have same artillery procedures. As do Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Malaysia, Gulf GCC, Egypt, Israel, and OAS. Syria, India, Iran, North Korea, China, and Russia, follow artillery procedures of Soviet Union. Russia has been switching to Western MGRS, to make their systems compatible with Western systems, for sale on international defense market.

 

The highway of death in GW1 was result of a disorderly withdrawal of Iraqi forces from Kuwait. Iraqies used what was available, including civilian vehicles, busses, trucks. All bunched together with Iraqie armor and pilfered military vehicles stolen from Kuwaiti Army when it was overrun on Aug. 2-3 1990. Order from Gen. Powell's Command, was anything not friendly moving inside a designated kill box, was valid within ROE for Desert Storm. ROE changed when Iraqies started to surrender in large numbers. But RG Armor units did not, and they tried to exfiltrate back to Iraq. They were caught in open , without any Iraqi air cover, and no air defense. Powell and Shwartzkopf did not want Saddam to have any forces under his command after DS, to preclude his ouster by Iraquies, which did not happen. Thus RG caught on road were subjected to intense attack from F-15E, A-10A's, F-16's, B-1B,B-52H, Tornado, Jaguar, and even Kuwaitie Air Force A-4Ms. Without weapon restriction. It got bloody, nasty, and Iraqies were unable to surrender, even if they wanted to. Nor could they fight. All they could do is to die, or run and die. It was nasty, but it was not a war crime either. It was fortunes of war. For many Iraqies withdrawing from Kuwait, being burned, bombed, and strafed was their mis-fortune. DON'T PICK A FIGHT WITH AMERICANS OR THEIR FRIENDS!

 

So wait, cluster bombs are the equivalent of gas according to professionals (and your first post), but ICM (more or less the same thing) is A-OK cuz its rocket or tube delivered? :music_whistling:

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To military professionals, cluster munitions are not at all like gas. They see them as combat multipliers and area denial weapon. ICM is slightly different from cluster munitions, is that ICM ejects larger submunitions but lesser amount, from rear of the 155mm round. ICM MLRS is just crazy how many submunitions it releases. ATCMS rocket is insane when compared to smaller MLRS rocket, with regards to amount of submunitions. Many ATCMS rockets have had their ICM payload switched to unitary insensitive high explosive. Similar to the one used in nuclear weapon initiation. But ICM MLRS and ATCMS rounds are both deployed, propositioned, and trained with. Thankfully for training , there are TruBlue inert variants.

To 'progressives' and activists, cluster munitions are as or nearly as bad, as WWI phosgene gas. Then again, to them WP, the good'all 'WilliePete' is a chemical weapon, which is absurd. By their interpretation, any firearm is a chemical weapon, as gunpowder uses chemical reaction, and is toxic when consumed. Nuts, but thats they way they are.

Cluster munitions got hammered becouse it turned out that the dud rate of submunitions was higher then reported by manufacturer and by Ordinance Corps. One issue that effected dud rate was shelf age of munitions, specifically the submunition fuses. Those aged differently then tables reported them to be.Those fuses were designed that , as long as weapon, was used within time frame for that lot, if the fuse failed to detonate, then that submunition would never detonate. Sounds great, except that failed submunitions, were no longer stored not in controlled environment. They were left in the field, for obvious reasons. To clear area , EOD would have to come in, and EOD is a very small cohort in high demand. EOD schools fail more students per capita then special forces selections. It is a stressful job. So scattered submunitions, were simply left where they landed. Out of sight out of mind. Until Mother Nature decided to send a reminder. Weather, temperature charges, rains, etc.., even microorganisms effected the chemistry of fuse charge. Otherwise stable nitrogen bonds aka "chickenwire' began degrading, which made charge susceptible to initiation. The main explosive filler of submunitions, was stable, but the initiation charge in the fuse of submunition , in hindsight, was not understood as well as it was thought it was. So when this problem came to light, it was explained away as submunitions , that failed to detonate, aged differently then expected when exposed to weather. So DOD funded research and it was discovered that even normally stored munitions, also degrarded. Much less, then UnEx (unexploded ordnance) left on the former battlefield, but enough to effect % of UnEx in the future. Also it was determined that stocks of munitions with expired lot numbers were still issued and used. Not a widespread issue, but enough to effect stats. Basic ground handling and storage safety was not effected. NATO armorers are careful, superstitious lot. But dud rate on battlefield was effected. While percentage was very very low, the amount of ICM and submunition dispensers used created enough duds out in the field to create a latent hazzard. Shifting sands and dust covered them to one degree or another, but nowhere deep enough to render them safe. Combined with chemical decomposition of fuses, effectively and unintentionally turned those duds into potential land mines. NATO tube artillery, MLRS launchers, and aircraft munitions, do have specialized variants for laying mines. FASCAM (for land systems),Field Artillery Scatterable Mines. Those rounds deployed laydown unburied land mines. However scatterable mines adhere to various protocols and agreements, and thus they self detonate within 24-96 hours. Except those that fail to self-destruct. FASCAM or air delivered mine is ejected out of the canister and falls to the ground. After it lands, it shoots out very thin non-metallic wirelike filaments. Like a fishing line. That arms the mine. When sensor wire is tripped, munition detonates. Some have magnetic fuses. others have weight based fusing. Most have multiple fuses. Colonels and generals love mines. Mines deny area to enemy, and channel enemy forces and fix them in place or slow them down for destruction with field artillery, aviation, and direct fire. Captains and below, hate mines. For same reason. Lots of munitions used in GW1 DS was shipped from Europe, where it propositioned to fight Soviets in WW3. A lot of it was simply past use by date. But that date was either waived, ignored, or not heeded. While standards are same for NATO munitions, lot designations and dates, varied across manufacturers, depending on nation, and timeframe of manufacture, even from same manufacturer. Of course in combat, if an error can be made, it will be made, and it will be made many times over before it is noticed. In case of cluster munitions, that notice happened years after the fact.

We can expect, that near future real world conflict (between nation states) will use still use cluster bombs , ICM, and FASCAM. But parameters of their use will be more stringent.

But a small NATO brigade sized force, opposing 3 or more Russian armored and motor-rifle divisions, on a hypothetical Central or Eastern European battlefield. You can bet that the brigade commander will use use FASCAM, and his tactical aviation will use cluster munitions.

Same goes for Korea. I cannot see Taiwanese Armed Forces , with US/Allied help, repelling a PRC amphibious landing, without use of ICM and cluster munitions. Or Israel repelling a combined Iranian-Arab re-invasion of Holy Land. We are heavily outnumbered on almost every battlefield by our potential enemies. They have more bodies and are willing to spend them, and they know it!

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