The biggest mistake in military aviation history?

[Boneski]

Okay,

 

 

Let me tell you what I did....

 

I needed some snacks... So I loaded my Backpack with some stuff...

So now I am sitting here watching all this with a bag full of snacks...

 

Man it is soooooooooo good... True dat! Double True!!

 

Let me tell you what I got...

 

I got some Cupcakes from Magnolia, A Baker's dozen son!

I got some Mr. Pibb and Red Vines.... It's Crazy Delicious...

 

I also brought some Freeze Dried Taster's Choice

just in case this turns into an all nighter... I don't even drink

coffee.... But some of you may want a cup...

 

I know you maybe wondering if I have water... yes, I did bring in some water... thanks for your concern.

 

I have plenty if you want to share...

 

If this is still going on... and stays PG... I may call up my little cousin

so she can see too.

 

This is Episode 10 of How Can You Even Think You Know What A Fighter Can or Can't Do When You Don't Have Any Hours Flying or Training In It.

 

Is this a 20 Part Series?

 

I hope PBS picks it up for next season....

 

 

Also I can't want for the DVD to come out... I wonder what the Bonus features will be???

 

Anyone know?

:pilotfly:

[FanBoy2006.01]

So you're saying that stealth gives the ability to give a devastating first strike?

 

Well yes . . . . but I don't see how gaining that ability leads directly to war.

 

 

Your Cuban missile case is a bit of a moot point - the USA had missiles in Turkey, next door to the USSR, before the USSR put missiles in Cuba.

 

In this case the USA had the decisive first strike capability - it didn't use it.

 

Neither has the USA started a war purely because it had the F-117 or the B-2.

 

 

Yes, you should try and prevent your enemy from obtaining a decisive first strike weapon before you - but that's what foreign intelligence is about, keeping abreast of a nation's progress in that area. It still goes on, y'know.

 

 

Britgliderpilot

Yes I know that. I never said the USSR didn't have good reason to put IRBM's in Cuba.

Like I said before, the military leaders in the USA wanted to launch a. preemptive strike against Cuba but President Kennedy vetoed it.

 

 

The Six Day War was the direct result of massive weapons buildup by the neighbors of Israel.

The Israeli government realized that if they suffered a coordinated attack by their neighbors their chance of survival would be virtually nil. I am paraphrasing the TV documentary, Combat in the Air.

 

 

What about the Israeli air strike on Osiraq?

 

 

More importantly I said that it MIGHT LEAD TO WAR.

 

 

Basically I said stealth technology is a major advantage that cause a shift in the balance of power.

And that MIGHT lead to war.

 

 

OldFrankHog;

 

 

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said with no reason. I said that if their already is tension an imbalance of power would increase it.

 

 

Are you guys pulling my leg or what?

[Ice]

I allways thought the biggest mistake in Aviation history was either Japan bombing Pearl Harbour or Hitler Bombing London.

[tflash]

To understand stealth on emust understand how technology has affected the evolution of science (of some interest to me since I teach on this).

 

Science is no longer a happy collection of bright ideas, like Newton's Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica. It is even no longer the feat of technical achievements, like RADAR was in WWII.

 

It is an industrial, coherent, consistent and planned calculation effort, with ever more predicatable goals. It is strange to say, but in a lot of advanced medical research disciplines, we actually "know" what we will know 5 years from now. Because research has been automated. It's not driven by luck but by effort.

 

Now about stealth. This is not one "bright idea", that you can copy like the chinese can copy French parfum or cola.

 

It is the combined effect of thousands of little details, acquired through extensive calculation, that give a predictable outcome.

 

Stealth in the F-22 is the combination of new sensors, new engine technology, new materials, new coating, new aerodynamic insights, new mettalurgy, new electronics, new radio etc. etc.

 

To give one example: it took the US ten years and much more powerful computers to go from the limited aerodynamics of F-117 to the smooth lines of F-22.

 

It is not something like the inlet duct separator, that anyone could copy once you saw a jet having it. Even more so, the engineers could also make an estimate *how long it would take* for an adversary, with its industrial potential, to match this combined performance.

 

You just KNOW others can't do it in a given period of time.

 

This is the single important reason Europeans are extremely eager to enter F-35 and are constantly dicussing access to the associated technologies. They KNOW they can't compete in a relevant timeframe. You do not need a genius, you need tons of computing power in a myriad of engineering fields.

 

European defense industry is doing very well in optronics and in naval stealth technology, but they are lagging behind significantly in the AESA and LPI radar technology field and do not have the materials and coating expertise at hand.

 

Of course, as well Japan, Europe and Russia will catch up (China is definitely behind with still mostly metal airframes), but not in the relevant timeframe.

 

This is the calculate investment. To me, this makes BIG sense.

 

 

Will it inspire an arms race? Who knows. Fact is an arms race is going on already, and a big one. Was it started by stealth? I doubt it. Does stealth show the rules of the game? Sure as hell.

[FanBoy2006.01]

I allways thought the biggest mistake in Aviation history was either Japan bombing Pearl Harbour or Hitler Bombing London.

 

Yes, those were huge mistakes. But in the case of Japan the outcome of the war was not clear at that stage.

 

When Hitler shifted his attack from the airfields to London he effectively destroyed Germany's strategy to win air superiority.

 

He should have kept pounding those radar stations as well.....

[TucksonSonny]

I allways thought the biggest mistake in Aviation history was either Japan bombing Pearl Harbour or Hitler Bombing London.

 

Last time I checked the biggest mistake in Aviation history was the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki :mad:

[S77th-konkussion]

Did I read that someone here is actually worried about the "balance of power" How cute.

 

Sonny- seriously man. You are ..... funny. Really. Thank GOD that NO ONE will EVER consult you for serious, grown up affairs like the continued existence of one's country.

 

[Ice]

Last time I checked the biggest mistake in Aviation history was the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki :mad:

 

Well that's debatable. Some would say it was the only way to get Japan to surrender and if those 2 cities werent bombed they would have fought till All Japanese were killed or captured. Therefor inflicting still many more casualties on the allies as well.

[TucksonSonny]

Well that's debatable. Some would say it was the only way to get Japan to surrender and if those 2 cities werent bombed they would have fought till All Japanese were killed or captured. Therefor inflicting still many more casualties on the allies as well.

 

Thus the killing of 140,000 civilians in Hiroshima and the killing of 74,000 civilians in Nagasaki is debatable?

I think we better focus back on the non-political subject if it is allright with you.

[Pilotasso]

I allways thought the biggest mistake in Aviation history was either Japan bombing Pearl Harbour or Hitler Bombing London.

 

Me thinks the worst mistake in aviation history was to use giant hydrogen filled zeppelins as bombers. Fortunatly they werent used much in that role to give those events much chances of happening, but you can guess what would hapen if one was caught by even a untrained fighter pilot. "I wonder how could I miss it because thats one huge b*tch!!" :D

 

Then all peasants in the radius of 1 mile should consider to scatedate the hell outa there.

[Pilotasso]

Since when that has anything with the original content of the thread?

 

It might be locked now.

[FanBoy2006.01]

Since when that has anything with the original content of the thread?

 

It might be locked now.

 

Ok, I have deleted my post.

 

I apologise to every one that use this forum and to the moderators of it.

[Frostie]

When Hitler shifted his attack from the airfields to London he effectively destroyed Germany's strategy to win air superiority.

 

He should have kept pounding those radar stations as well.....

Fanboy you've been playing way too many Global Supremacy Games lately ,

now put them away and get back on schedule with LOMAC like a good bois should.;)

[Anytime]

I thought India and Russia were going to collaborate on the next 5th Generation Soviet fighter. Russia maybe not be able afford to go it alone (neither can the US thus the JSF strategy) but Inidia sure can thanks to all those call centres ;) It'll be 15 years for anything is flying! By that time skynet will truly be active "E band data links" and strike UCAVs and stealth will be your only chance of surviving.

 

 

I'm not quite following your logic here . . . .

 

 

You're saying that the F-22 being better than everyone else is going to cause a war between the nations with aircraft of lower capability?

 

 

For the record, the Russians can't afford a new aircraft, let alone a stealthy one. Seen their air force spending recently?

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

This (stealth) gives it the capability to engage opposing fighters without their pilots even knowing that they are under attack.

I strongly disagree. Because, to “engage opposing fighters” the “stealth” must come out of the “stealth” condition. Therefore, the stealth itself, does not provide ability to engage opposing fighters without their knowledge.

 

The use of other aircraft for searching simply means that those other aircrafts are primary targets of the R-27EP missiles.

 

Basically the F 22 has the capability of : “Look first, shoot first.” in nearly all scenarios.

By “look first” do you mean turn the radar on first? If yeas, then F-22 is “seen first” and the R-27EP maybe flying towards his nose even without him knowing it. Hunter becomes hunted.

 

If by “look first” you meant some search sensors other then radar, then please provide the type of the sensor you are talking about.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I do believe that F-22 is among the best fighter airplanes in the world.

[Anytime]

What makes u think current generation fighters will see the radar? It's very difficult to detect as per most modern frequency agile radars.

 

I strongly disagree. Because, to “engage opposing fighters” the “stealth” must come out of the “stealth” condition. Therefore, the stealth itself, does not provide ability to engage opposing fighters without their knowledge.

 

The use of other aircraft for searching simply means that those other aircrafts are primary targets of the R-27EP missiles.

 

By “look first” do you mean turn the radar on first? If yeas, then F-22 is “seen first” and the R-27EP maybe flying towards his nose even without him knowing it. Hunter becomes hunted.

 

If by “look first” you meant some search sensors other then radar, then please provide the type of the sensor you are talking about.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I do believe that F-22 is among the best fighter airplanes in the world.

[britgliderpilot]

I thought India and Russia were going to collaborate on the next 5th Generation Soviet fighter. Russia maybe not be able afford to go it alone (neither can the US thus the JSF strategy) but Inidia sure can thanks to all those call centres ;) It'll be 15 years for anything is flying! By that time skynet will truly be active "E band data links" and strike UCAVs and stealth will be your only chance of surviving.

 

Could be longer - the Eurofighter requirement was born somewhere in the 70's . . . . .

 

But yeah, I think you're right on that one. The Indians certainly have the cash, the Russians have the know-how . . . . good partnership :)

 

In line with the thread topic, you've got to hope the politicians wielding the weapons are of sound mind - that's always the deciding factor.

 

 

As regards the R-27EP and "un-stealthing" to attack - see previous comments regarding LPI/frequency agile radar.

 

If you're really clever, you could probably build a missile seeker that can engage LPI radars. However . . . you can't exactly test it without direct access to the LPI logic in question, and should the F-22 turn it's radar off then of course nothing happens.

 

It's not something to rely on to negate the F-22's general capability - as with most other fighter aircraft, I'm not expecting the engineers to rest on their laurels.

I know I've seen articles on the Hornet's maneuvrability being significantly increased purely by upgrading the FBW software - given the number of systems on the F-22 that rely on computer code, a new firmware version for that aircraft could REALLY change things . . . .

 

Sidenote - did you know they left a spare bay for another onboard computer "just in case" they needed one in the future?

Now that's forward thinking ;)

[Alfa]

For the record, the Russians can't afford a new aircraft, let alone a stealthy one.

 

Well they are in the process of developing one ;) .

 

Seen their air force spending recently?

 

I have seen their military spending increase quite significantly recently - IIRC it grew by 27% from 2004 to 2005, again by 22% from 2005 to 2006 and if I am not mistaken an increase of the same magnitude is on the agenda for 2007 :) .

[britgliderpilot]

Well they are in the process of developing one ;) .

 

 

 

I have seen their military spending increase quite significantly recently - IIRC it grew by 27% from 2004 to 2005, again by 22% from 2005 to 2006 and if I am not mistaken an increase of the same magnitude is on the agenda for 2007 :) .

 

Oooh!

 

NINETEEN Su-27SM upgrades! Such wealth!!

 

 

:P

 

I may exaggerate the point slightly, but I don't believe Russia on it's own has the funding to properly develop a 5th-Gen fighter. Russia and India is a different matter, and one I overlooked to start with.

[Alfa]

Oooh!

 

NINETEEN Su-27SM upgrades! Such wealth!!

:P

 

There are other aspects of defence than the airforce - if you have followed with the progress made for the navy, you would realise just how much money has been pumped into it over the recent years. The fact that budget increases may only now start to become evident for the airforce may simply be a matter of priorities - spending first where it is the most needed.

 

I may exaggerate the point slightly, but I don't believe Russia on it's own has the funding to properly develop a 5th-Gen fighter.

 

I believe otherwise :)

[Ukr_Alex]

I believe they have the money, and more then enough of it, it's just not in the interest of the leading politicians to spend any money on the military, more money on the military, less in their own pockets.

 

Besides I dont believe in any wars from the West, it just makes no sense.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

What makes u think current generation fighters will see the radar? It's very difficult to detect as per most modern frequency agile radars.

Very difficult is not impossible. By the same token, stealth is not invisible. I am no expert in radars and am not able to discuss this in more details.

[hitman]

I feel another cold war coming on. Anyone else? Morning Mr. Putin.

[GGTharos]

Very difficult is not impossible. By the same token, stealth is not invisible. I am no expert in radars and am not able to discuss this in more details.

 

The R-27EP is not a viable weapon. THat's all there is to it.

While LPI radars can be detected witht he rigth RWR set, it won't do you much good; an LPI radar by necessity scans the airspace only as frequently as it needs to, so your missile's guidance is not going to be so great.

 

It's funny how you keep coming upw ith 'oh all you need is this to defeat stealth' ideas, as if the stealth designers had not through of'em ;)

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

It's funny how you keep coming upw ith 'oh all you need is this to defeat stealth' ideas, as if the stealth designers had not through of'em ;)

It’s funny that you said that LPI radar can be detected yet somehow that does not matter when it comes to stealth? If it can be detected, than it is not "so" stealth is it?

 

R-27EP is designed to go after airborne radars, and while stealth designers think about stealth, anti-radiation missile designers think about radars.