A plea to the DCS community: (re-)presentation of women in DCS

[lemoen]

The guy you replied to is a bit of a sausage, but anyone can download and play DCS without having to interact with a single person. He is hardly a barrier to most people.

 

The point is, every time someone different opens up their mouth in communities like this, there's a zerg rush of mouthbreathers berating them for saying something reasonable, and they wouldn't if one of their ilk did the same. If that's your experience day in and day out everywhere, you certainly won't even try to invest time into a game completely dominated by such people. Why would you? Its easier to shut up and stay out of sight.

 

Also, these dumb dumbs don't seem to get the fact that if DCS's numbers doubled, we'd get twice as much toys in the same time.

[Corvidae]

For those who say it’s “genderizing” to ask for female voice(s), female pilot bodies, etc...

 

Imagine if a company made an incredibly realistic and entertaining flight sim, but all voices and models were female. Would you buy it? Would you go online and fly with others? There’d be no nudity nor unprotective clothing/armor, just female characters.

 

I could see most* men playing it once or twice, but being forced to use female characters would irk your butts, and there’d be a constant call for male bodies and voices.

 

That’s how we feel.

 

And for the “Immaturity? Well, boys will be boys...” Rude and uncivil behaviors should never be excused, except IRL in the trenches while a bayonet attack is going on.

 

 

*There will always be exceptions.

 

I honestly wouldn't care, I often play female characters in RPGs and other games so doing so in a flight sim wouldn't bother me in the least.

 

I'd probably get tired of it if there were no pew-pewing to be done though.

[JNelson]

For those who say it’s “genderizing” to ask for female voice(s), female pilot bodies, etc...

 

Imagine if a company made an incredibly realistic and entertaining flight sim, but all voices and models were female. Would you buy it? Would you go online and fly with others? There’d be no nudity nor unprotective clothing/armor, just female characters.

 

I could see most* men playing it once or twice, but being forced to use female characters would irk your butts, and there’d be a constant call for male bodies and voices.

 

That’s how we feel.

 

And for the “Immaturity? Well, boys will be boys...” Rude and uncivil behaviors should never be excused, except IRL in the trenches while a bayonet attack is going on.

 

 

*There will always be exceptions.

 

Most of the time you don't look at the pilot body, anyways someone posted a female and male pilot in a flight suit and there was basically no difference. There are female ATC voices in BMS plenty of people play that. We have plenty of women playing DCS so obviously it is a non-issue as far as people are mostly concerned. That's why it is so low priority for ED. Diversity is great, but there are more important things to fix than the ATC voices right now.

 

This is a silly argument as long as there are planes, bombs and missiles people will play it.

 

I think it should be assholes will be assholes and called out as such.

[ApoNOOB]

I don't know how you guys (!) arrived after OP at gender politics & SJW. Looks reasonable and well stated, also people make it sound like you could just jump into any MP server as a female and not face silly behaviour by the community.

 

 

Last female pilot I met on TS3 could not fly in peace, non stop comments about gender, bad jokes etc. It does not even need to be in bad taste (atleast in your mind) the literally endless "I think it's so nice you as a women fly in DCS.." "you are not bad for a girl" etc. would kill it for anyone.

 

 

I really envy the lack of contact with ACTUAL gender politic most people here had. This is certainly NOT what falls under SJW etc. you guys should be way more careful about labeling people, it just turns the discussion hostile. "This is SJW BS", is the same as if anyone just dismisses your argument as sexist pig male BS. Maybe attack the arguments not strawman. :)

Edited May 18, 2018 by ApoNOOB

[Plague2Delta]

This whole post and "plea" is comedy gold and quality bants...Take a step back and realize this is a simulation where you are able to fly some of the most realistically modelled combat aircraft, participate in simulated combat and missions with people all over the world in real time, and yes pretend you are a combat pilot. Key word: pretend, because this isn't reality. For the time being there aren't female voices, pilot bodies (how would you know in a flight suit and helmet anyways, just stupid)...so do like you do when you fly, enjoy the simulation and pretend like the rest of us.

 

As for the feels about the majority male dominated aviation community, get over it. No one has an obligation to cater to you over your sex. You already have the ultimate freedom and equality of access to the simulation and the community. Everyone is allowed their opinion (as is your opinion that you are being responded to), and the true equality is that you can come into this community, enjoy the simulation, and embrace the world of combat aviation, not make it a mythical patriarchal dragon for you and the white knights to slay. Besides that, why this social justice "plea," why aren't you flying and enjoying the simulation now? I am headed off to do just that.

[animaal]

OP, welcome!

 

In a game like DCS, realism is important. Sometimes seems like realism is more important than entertainment :) Otherwise why would anybody be willing to sit waiting 8 minutes for a virtual flight computer to start up?

 

Having said that...

 

Female ATC voices - Yes please. I imagine there are plenty of female ATC personnel in the real world.

 

Female pilot voices - Would be nice, but far less important, especially given the figure above that ~6% of military pilots are female. However I would welcome this if it did appear, so long as it stays realistic - I wouldn't think 50% pilots being female would be realistic.

 

Female body model - who cares? Many people fly with the pilot model hidden. And as shown in another post above, the models are likely to look identical (or nearly so).

 

I have no objection to the features that I think the OP is demanding. I just think the tone is all wrong and appears designed to provoke an angry reaction.

 

This game/simulator has overall the nicest, most helpful players I've seen of any game. this is possibly related to the age profile of the players. There will be the occasional old-fashioned and unacceptable thing said, but I think polite admonishment would be better than dragging identity politics into things and trying to rally troops for a "cause". People playing DCS aren't trying to cause offense.

[RePhil]

As I always say "Do you want to talk to the man in charge or the women that knows what's going on" not DSC but related to this subject I taught truck driving for a few years and would rather have taught only women the listen and take instruction and learn better. Guys think they know it all before you start.

[Majinbot]

If aliens exist and destroy on our planet, they have all are right to do it!! Now you cannot make a movie, videogame, TV series, etc. where there must be a leading woman, a trans, a gay couple, an Asian, and a black person. Otherwise they are attacked and called Nazis and other nonsense. I'm not a racist, but this is an exaggeration, let these people work in peace. An example is the game Kingdom Come Deliverance, where the creator was attacked for the above things, as if in the medieval Bohemia there were really the people I mentioned before.

[Corvidae]

I don't know how you guys (!) arrived after OP at gender politics & SJW.

 

Probably the same way that people thought that a female and black main character in Star Wars was "PC culture run amok" and "feminist propaganda."

 

Asking for female voices and stuff does seem like a weird thing to freak out over.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

It sure is fun watching adults act like teenagers on an imageboard.

[JNelson]

Probably the same way that people thought that a female and black main character in Star Wars was "PC culture run amok" and "feminist propaganda."

 

Asking for female voices and stuff does seem like a weird thing to freak out over.

 

Most people aren't freaking out over that but rather the other things said in the post.

[scitaborea]

The guy you replied to is a bit of a sausage, but anyone can download and play DCS without having to interact with a single person. He is hardly a barrier to most people.

 

To be perfectly honest, it is those types of reactions and responses that keep me from posting on most forums. I agree that it shouldn't matter either way, that being the point of equality. I prefer to just stay out of it rather than deal with people like that. Life is far too short to put up with rude people.

 

I have enjoyed DCS for many years without ever having participated in the forums. I do not think this is what Elysian Angel means, though. She is speaking equally about the forums and the community as well as the game. The sad fact, though, is that there will always be jerks in every crowd whether that be online or in real life. Confronting them enables them more. I find it best to simply ignore them.

[Corvidae]

If aliens exist and destroy on our planet, they have all are right to do it!! Now you cannot make a movie, videogame, TV series, etc. where there must be a leading woman, a trans, a gay couple, an Asian, and a black person. Otherwise they are attacked and called Nazis and other nonsense. I'm not a racist, but this is an exaggeration, let these people work in peace. An example is the game Kingdom Come Deliverance, where the creator was attacked for the above things, as if in the medieval Bohemia there were really the people I mentioned before.

 

Yeah, because that was a historical game set in a specific time period 700 years ago...DCS is a relatively modern flight sim so bringing up KC:D is a pretty poor comparison here.

 

And actually, no, TV shows and movies aren't attacked for not including one of each of particular unrepresented group, people do however flip out and complain about "political correctness" if one of those sorts of characters are included...like what we saw with the new Star Wars movies or Beauty and the Beast.

 

There are reasons to be concerned about SJW behavior, this is not one of them.

[The Integrator]

I have no objection to the features that I think the OP is demanding. I just think the tone is all wrong and appears designed to provoke an angry reaction.

 

This. The requests in and of themselves are made to seem reasonable but the tone of it worries me, the OP is surely worth at least an A in a gender studies class :P . It is clearly not about the feature request but about furthering a political agenda and getting a foot in the door so to speak...

[Mars Exulte]

@ApoNoob

I agree that would be moderately annoying. That said, clumsy and idiotic jokes, and teasing are to be expected when hanging around a group of friends. People teasing her about being a girl is no different than anything else people get teased about. Canadians get teased a lot about being so nice, eh? Finns get teased a lot for being... not nice. But never to their face! Germans get teased for being serious. I get teased for marrying my cousin and having illicit relations with the barn animals.

 

They're first world problems. There are parts of the world where women are treated like property, beaten, sold, raped, with no recourse. Because your female friend was teased for being a girl fits right in with everything else I listed above. It isn't the evil patriarchy or sime unbearable hardship.

 

I've known gamer girls, too. And I've seen women in military and fire departmemts, too. The one's that are respected and well treated are the ones that roll with the punches, work hard, and give as good as they get. The ones that piss and whine about being teased run off eventually and are disliked. Guess what? Most guys like guys that roll with it, abd dislike the ones that piss and whine, too.

[Rudel_chw]

...

Thanks for bearing with me. I'd love to hear the (mature) opinion of the rest of the community!

 

I’m male, but fully support your plea and hope that ED will listen and improve this aspect of DCS ... I would love to see women better represented in game, as they are in real life:

 

 

 

:) Best regards

[Farlander]

I think it is absolutely hilarious to attack DCS of all games to be "sexist".. The only way you can view DCS as sexist is if you don't know how to look at things with an open mind and only focus on things you have predetermined as "sexist". Examples of this is ATC, do you really think someone sat there and tought lets use a male voice becuase i don't like women? Let's say the F-18's audio warning system was played with a males voice (as a deliberate act), i guess that you could call sexism, but in fact.. it isn't.. It's a womans voice, just as it is irl.

 

As far as the community goes it has nothing to do with the game itself, and that part is no different to any other online experience you'll find atm. I know for a fact that every woman i have met in this community has been shown much more respect than in most other games i've played (note i didn't say it's perfect..)

 

I absolutely agree with everything regarding similar treatment regardless of any nationality, sex, colour or whatever it may be. That is a topic of being respectful, but being offended at everything because you can be is not something i support. Way too many are just looking to get triggered instead of actually caring about important things. If you can't enjoy DCS because [insert group of people] isn't represented in the game (as voice/character), then you might want to quit and spend more of your time on something called politics.

 

It can't be expected that in the future you need to either have all of the worlds diversity in game or make every model so bland it doesn't represent anyone to remain "free" from sexist behaviour.

[Corvidae]

Where did the OP call DCS "sexist?"

Must have missed it.

[Farlander]

Where did the OP call DCS "sexist?"

Must have missed it.

 

Forgive me, she might not have used that word when i come to think of it. But her arguments were towards DCS not representing women in-game, which is then interpreted as "sexist" of sorts.

[ApoNOOB]

@Zhukov I agree these are first world problems, yet it's silly to ignore one issue because of worse crimes in the world.

 

 

It's really about inclusiveness, can you expect to be treated the same as everyone else, or do you have to deal with annoyances only because such a silly thing as your gender? And I have to disagree about the 'teasing' part, yes I as german with terrible english face a lot of ridicule online. But it is not something that follows me constantly, in the end, the community is mostly great and tolerant, not only to me but to others.

 

 

Yet as soon as a female voice joins the public coms, it's suddenly the biggest news on the channel. Imagine that wherever you go, everytime you join somewhere etc. We as males simply don't have that problem. So if the community could please atleast learn this from the thread: Yes we have female pilot's in DCS, it's not a big deal, just treat all your fellow pilots the same.

 

 

@Thread, the discussion is a bit unclear and people misunderstand each other a lot. So far support for female ATC seems very clear, aswell as female pilot voice but a lot less. And not that much interest in a female pilot texture.

 

 

From the OP, there was a simple request in the nature of the adressing in official statements.

To people starting posts (both regular forum users such as myself, and developers) and youtube-videos, please don't start of exlusively with "Hi gentlemen", "hello gents", or "Welcome to the Hornet, gentlemen". There are alternatives such as "ladies and gents" or simply "Hello people" or "Hey everyone".

I think this got blown out of proportion and misinterpreted a little in here, isn't this normal practice in all companys&gov. statements around the world? It's maybe a language barrier thing for me, but in german it would be very impolite to address a crowd like that. Atleast for official statements I support this. Everyone else is ofcourse free to speak into the room as he or she (^^) likes, but just know, you are not alone anymore. :p

 

 

Also nobody claimed that DCS is sexist. ;)

Edited May 18, 2018 by ApoNOOB
typos, some corrections

[Corvidae]

Forgive me, she might not have used that word when i come to think of it. But her arguments were towards DCS not representing women in-game, which is then interpreted as "sexist" of sorts.

 

Well she's right, women aren't really represented in the game...sexism is different though and there's probably a reason why the OP didn't use that term specifically (I assume at least).

[Corvidae]

And yes, complaining about a lack of female ATC etc in the sim might be "first world problems"...but complaining about anything related to the sim is practically first world problems.

 

To many, having female voices may not be "that important" but honestly, is a server crashing or bugs in a module really important in the grand scheme of things?

[Farlander]

And yes, complaining about a lack of female ATC etc in the sim might be "first world problems"...but complaining about anything related to the sim is practically first world problems.

 

To many, having female voices may not be "that important" but honestly, is a server crashing or bugs in a module really important in the grand scheme of things?

 

 

Yes, absolutely? You know why? i'm here to fly, not to be concerned about womens rights or equality between characters in DCS.

 

edit: let me clarify, in DCS specifically, it is much more important for the game to work than it is for it to represent women just because someone wants it for political reasons. I find it hard to believe one can be offended because the characters are men or the voices are men.. i don't react the slightest to the fact that many characters and voices in other games are female..

Edited May 18, 2018 by Farlander

[Kilo 4-2]

What strikes me is that you're able to genderdize a game that is about machines and physics. Well done!

Well said

 

Sent from my G3223 using Tapatalk

[Mars Exulte]

@ApoNoob

True, but I would expect that mainly initially upon joining a group when most people don't know you as well. There's always a handful of idiots that won't let something drop, but in most cases oncevthe novelty wears off I would expect it to be less noticeable. That's what I've observed the times I ran across women online in Eve, etc, though I can't speak for everyone.

 

Consoles or random matches is something entirely different, especially Xbox, but then I detest randos and loathe Xbox with an intensity words cannot convey, in part because the community is garbage... and the hardware... and Microsoft, too, for that matter..... Point is I've never observed positive behavior in THAT environment, but it's a cesspool in the first place and you expect harassment and griefing no matter what @@