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Cold War 1947 - 1991


Alpenwolf

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12 minutes ago, rossmum said:

Because they're going to join the server and play it how they want to play it, whether or not that's enjoyable for the rest of us. Again, this is a public server, not some insular community run for a squadron made up of 40-somethings who all get together to play co-op PvE after work. You have to account for the playerbase you have, not the one you want, because as long as the server remains public, the one you want will only ever make up part of your actual server.

 

To elaborate, though, on the A-4 specifically for Dirt Merchant, here's what will happen:

 

  • People will join the server without the mod installed, or with it installed incorrectly (as most of the DCS community struggle to even install liveries without explicit instructions). Those people will see Su-27s flying around. At best, they will complain in chat that they have to fight Su-27s with older planes, or complain that they can't see the slots and want to fly it themselves.
  • More likely, the F-5s will shoot the "Su-27s", because they can't IFF and rely on visual ID. Teamkill. The MiG-19s and the large number of radar-incompetent MiG-21 players will fail to destroy enemy aircraft or complain about being "teamkilled" by those "Su-27s", because they can't or didn't IFF them to see they're hostile. The 19 is VID only and a worrying amount of 21 players either don't use their radar or don't know how to IFF with it.
  • Someone will have the wrong version of the mod, and be able to handily out-fly everything else on the entire server because the SFM was, to put it frankly, a UFO. Best case this is just annoying, worst case is that the person doing it is doing so intentionally as some kind of minmaxing strategy (because this is PvP and competitive people exist). This will cause constant headaches back and forth as nobody enjoys getting farmed for kills by something you have no answer to, and whoever is doing the farming is usually having a fun time annoying everyone else.
  • Any bugs introduced with updates to the mod may affect server stability and will be much harder to troubleshoot, as there are a lot less people to find bugs with the A-4 than there are with the official modules.

There is a very, very, very, very good reason why the only servers that run mods are part of relatively insular (or PvE, or both) communities where almost all players are in some common Discord or Facebook group or whatever. It is an absolute nightmare for the server owner to deal with and magnifies the problems that already come with core game patches.

 

Good points! You're so smart and insightful!

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Because they're going to join the server and play it how they want to play it, whether or not that's enjoyable for the rest of us. Again, this is a public server, not some insular community run for a squadron made up of 40-somethings who all get together to play co-op PvE after work. You have to account for the playerbase you have, not the one you want, because as long as the server remains public, the one you want will only ever make up part of your actual server.
 
To elaborate, though, on the A-4 specifically for Dirt Merchant, here's what will happen:
 
  • People will join the server without the mod installed, or with it installed incorrectly (as most of the DCS community struggle to even install liveries without explicit instructions). Those people will see Su-27s flying around. At best, they will complain in chat that they have to fight Su-27s with older planes, or complain that they can't see the slots and want to fly it themselves.
  • More likely, the F-5s will shoot the "Su-27s", because they can't IFF and rely on visual ID. Teamkill. The MiG-19s and the large number of radar-incompetent MiG-21 players will fail to destroy enemy aircraft or complain about being "teamkilled" by those "Su-27s", because they can't or didn't IFF them to see they're hostile. The 19 is VID only and a worrying amount of 21 players either don't use their radar or don't know how to IFF with it.
  • Someone will have the wrong version of the mod, and be able to handily out-fly everything else on the entire server because the SFM was, to put it frankly, a UFO. Best case this is just annoying, worst case is that the person doing it is doing so intentionally as some kind of minmaxing strategy (because this is PvP and competitive people exist). This will cause constant headaches back and forth as nobody enjoys getting farmed for kills by something you have no answer to, and whoever is doing the farming is usually having a fun time annoying everyone else.
  • Any bugs introduced with updates to the mod may affect server stability and will be much harder to troubleshoot, as there are a lot less people to find bugs with the A-4 than there are with the official modules.
There is a very, very, very, very good reason why the only servers that run mods are part of relatively insular (or PvE, or both) communities where almost all players are in some common Discord or Facebook group or whatever. It is an absolute nightmare for the server owner to deal with and magnifies the problems that already come with core game patches.


You are correct. I wrote a long reply about how this was pandering to the lowest common denominator but if the server is to be better it must be kept public. If it is public people can decide if they like it and stay. If not, honestly, all the better. I only wish that the processes to improve upon it and update it weren't so (typically DCS) convoluted that we shy away from any meaningful change unless it's easily implemented and universally understood. We all know this is the best PvP server. It's a shame change is slow.


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Ideally, the mod would become a full module (it easily has the quality to do so IMO) but the creators have taken the stance that they want it to remain not only free, but also open to the community without any locked/encrypted files. I get why they've taken that stance, but by doing so it kind of dooms the mod to become a plaything for smaller organised MP or SP - which is a real shame, but it is what it is. It was made by members of a primarily PvE community after all, and seems most widely adopted by the SP community who make much more scripted and study-level missions for it than we have here.

 

1 hour ago, Dirt_Merchant said:

Good points! You're so smart and insightful!

 

Smart and insightful enough not to resort to attitude, I guess.


Edited by rossmum
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2 minutes ago, rossmum said:

Ideally, the mod would become a full module (it easily has the quality to do so IMO) but the creators have taken the stance that they want it to remain not only free, but also open to the community without any locked/encrypted files. I get why they've taken that stance, but by doing so it kind of dooms the mod to become a plaything for smaller organised MP or SP - which is a real shame, but it is what it is. It was made by members of a primarily PvE community after all, and seems most widely adopted by the SP community who make much more scripted and study-level missions for it than we have here.

 

 

Smart and insightful enough not to resort to attitude, I guess.

 

 

Good point! Smart! Insightful!

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4 hours ago, LoneS said:

@Dirt_Merchant

 

You type one more time smart and insightful and I might think you're just trolling him 😛

 

On a serious note now I agree with what Alpy and rossmum said. I enjoy flying the A-4 and I do that in singleplayer only. Looks like it will never become a module so we'll never see it on the Cold War server 😞

 

Just to add a few notes. SRS is way more necessary and mandatory than the A-4. And if you don't update SRS you can still fly without affecting your game but the problem would be lack of comms and players will start typing to you. So you will be notified. And like I said it doens't cause problems.

 

Alpy always says the MiG21 and F5 are the main modules. That doesn't mean the only modules. The rest of modules to add something to it and as Alpy recently said: "combining different assets and hopefully squeezing some indispensable team effort out of them in a way we get the most out of a mission to have... well... FUN!" So having other modules is vital to get to where he wants to get.

 

On another side note it was a nice discussion up there. Not often someone admits to others to have made the better point and give them credit for it 😉

 

You know, I really was serious about his points being good, and valid - but his mouth foaming and hand waving at the slightest mention of adding something to the server, plus his pessimistic attitude about the community in general just rubbed me wrong.

 

to me the issue is dead until @Alpenwolfdecides its not - I'm sure we'd all love the A4 to become an officially sanctioned module (would be nice if ED threw the team a bone and let them keep it open, and still add it to the roster), and we all know its not going to happen in the short term so its a dream suspended for now.

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  • ED Team
16 hours ago, rossmum said:

 

The problem isn't allowing people to join without it, the problem is what happens when they do. Players without the mod will see a Su-27 (possibly without textures), a much larger aircraft with much larger hitboxes, performing like a Skyhawk. Players who don't regularly update the mod may have issues getting features to work, or there may be bugs or missing features that have since been fixed in newer versions (particularly FM and DM related) which could turn out to give an unfair advantage. I don't know if integrity checks will trigger on modified files for an external mod, but that could also lead to issues if people figure out how to modify the files (it's an open-sourced community mod...) and give themselves things they shouldn't have.

 

We also then have the very likely situation that the combination of small size, excellent agility, and four Sidewinders will result in yet another purpose-built strike aircraft being turned into the new meta fighter. It might've served that role in various militaries, but if the point of the server is to focus on MiGs vs F-5s (and later F-8s and F1s), it could shift the gameplay quite abruptly.

I don't think it's even possible to join the server without the mod if IC is on.

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Server News:

 

Operation Swedish Delivery is back online:

- I did a major rework of the mission (felt like designing a new one) so a change log wont be shared as I'm sure you've all forgotten about the mission anyway 😉

- Instead, here's some of the updated briefing with new briefing images to help refreshing your memory. For more details, including freq., you'll have to check out the mission's briefing online.

 

Situation:

 

Both coalitions are seeking to gain control over the large area between the two military airbases of Maykop (Red) and Vody (Blue). Each coalition has one FARP in that area and is tasked with destroying the enemy's FARP and capturing it to get the job done.

In addition, AJS37 pilots are tasked with a secondary and a highly risky objective of taking out 4 x SA-2 radar units at 4 different SA-2 sites. Completing the task would enable a flight of 4 x B-52's to attack Maykop and carpet bomb it! Therefore, it's up to the Swedes whether the B-52's deliver a special gift or not!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ATTENTION!

Blue pilots are NOT tasked with attacking Maykop's airbase! Leave that to the bombers doing so from higher altitudes and stick with providing escort instead, should the B-52's become active in the first place.

 

Red Objectives:

 

MiG's and L-39's:

 

- Waypoint 1 is our FARP Shpora (check out the mark on the F10 map), where you need to provide CAP.
- Waypoint 2 is the enemy's FARP (check out the mark on the F10 map), where you need to provide cover for our strikers and helicopters.
- Feel free to strike the enemy's FARP if you want to test your air-to-ground capabilities.
- Watch out for enemy AA's and AAA's!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Su-25's and Ka-50's:

 

Waypoint 1 is the enemy's FARP (check out the mark on the F10 map). We believe there is one Chaparral and multiple AAA's.
Destroy the FARP structures including the armed watch-towers and any ground threats in that area.
Once that's done, friendly Mi-8's can and must deploy ground units to capture the FARP.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mi-8's:

 

- Deploy ground units at the enemy's FARP at waypoint 1 once his defences have been eliminated.
- Deploy AA's and AAA's to strengthen our FARP's garrison.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Combined Arms:

 

The 2 cmdr slots are for players controlling ground units while being on SRS with each other and other players to coordinate their attacks.
You MUST be on SRS as a cmdr operator!
The JTAC slots are mainly for players who want to check out the situation quickly, provide GCI for a group of people or preferably everyone. In addition, you can use the JTAC slot to drive a ground unit. However, the latter requires you being on comms with cmdr operators to avoid confusion and/or causing problems to their attacks.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Blue Objectives:

 

F-5's, F-86's and C-101's:

 

- Waypoint 1 is our FARP Warsaw (check out the mark on the F10 map), where you need to provide CAP.
- Waypoint 2 is the enemy's FARP (check out the mark on the F10 map), where you need to provide cover for our strikers and helicopters.
- Feel free to strike the enemy's FARP if you want to test your air-to-ground capabilities.
- Watch out for enemy AA's and AAA's!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AJS37's:

 

* You are tasked with a special operation *

 

There are 4 x AJS37 flights with the codenames Alpha, Bravo, Charlie and Delta. Each flight consists of two ships. That makes a total of 8 x AJS37's tasked with taking out 4 radar units of 4 different SA-2 sites behind enemy lines.

 

Each flight has a number of different waypoints to help guiding it over the large terrain towards the assigned targets (see briefing images).

Alpha flight: Waypoint-6 is positioned exactly on the SA-2's radar unit.
Bravo flight: Waypoint-6 is positioned exactly on the SA-2's radar unit.
Charlie flight: Waypoint-4 is positioned exactly on the SA-2's radar unit.
Delta flight: Waypoint-4 is positioned exactly on the SA-2's radar unit.

 

When a player chooses to fly any of the 8 available AJS37's, upon spawning a message pops up on the upper right corner of the screen and tells the player whether the SA-2 radar unit he's tasked with eliminating is still operational or not. And if it's been eliminated then the player knows he no longer needs to go after it, and if possible chooses a different AJS37 slot of a different flight to take on another SA-2 radar unit.

 

Once all 4 x SA-2 radar units are eliminated, a flight of 4 x B-52's will make its way due west to carpet bomb Maykop airbase!

 

Notes:
- You only need to eliminate the SA-2 radar units, NOT all units at a site (see image).
- Attacking Maykop airbase is NOT your objective! The B-52's should handle that.
- Make sure you provide escort for the B-52's together with other friendly flights to ensure the success of the attack.
- Feel free to attack the enemy's FARP if you want to.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A-10's:

 

Waypoint 1 is the enemy's FARP (check out the mark on the F10 map). We believe there is one Strela and multiple AAA's.
Destroy the FARP structures including the armed watch-towers and any ground threats in that area.
Once that's done, friendly UH-1's can and must deploy ground units to capture the FARP.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UH-1's:

 

- Deploy ground units at the enemy's FARP at waypoint 1 once his defences have been eliminated.
- Deploy AA's and AAA's to strengthen our FARP's garrison.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Combined Arms:

 

The 2 cmdr slots are for players controlling ground units while being on SRS with each other and other players to coordinate their attacks.
You MUST be on SRS as a cmdr operator!
The JTAC slots are mainly for players who want to check out the situation quickly, provide GCI for a group of people or preferably everyone. In addition, you can use the JTAC slot to drive a ground unit. However, the latter requires you being on comms with cmdr operators to avoid confusion and/or causing problems to their attacks.

 

 

red notes.png

 

 

blue notes.png

 

 

Sa-2 radar modified.jpg

 

 

waypoints modified.jpg


Edited by Alpenwolf
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  • ED Team
7 hours ago, LoneS said:

Just to add a few notes. SRS is way more necessary and mandatory than the A-4. And if you don't update SRS you can still fly without affecting your game but the problem would be lack of comms and players will start typing to you. So you will be notified. And like I said it doens't cause problems.

Complete apples and oranges here. SRS is not a part of the game. It's a separate application that merely communicates with DCS. It doesn't affect the behaviour of the game even if it were to completely break. On the other case the A-4 mod is. So it affects how the game functions internally. It adds new assets with their own logic into the environment. And it can (and had in the past) break things that are seemingly completely unrelated, e.g. if it's out of date and some functionality it relies on changes in core game.

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3 hours ago, LoneS said:

 

Did you just actually agree with what I said and somehow got confused?! I don't dispute not one word of what you said. Except for the apples and oranges part. I was only replying to a user who was comparing the A-4 to SRS and other applications.

 

I literally cannot comprehend the direction this discussion has taken, all I can say is Smart and Insightful!

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14 hours ago, m4ti140 said:

I don't think it's even possible to join the server without the mod if IC is on.

 

It is. AO and Mugga run aerobatics servers with boatloads of mods on and you can join without all of them regardless of IC, the technique Dirt Merchant posted presumably works just as well for other mods as it does for the Skyhawk.

 

Alpen - are the SAM sites live/covered by anything else, out of curiosity? The one time I flew a strike against them on Swedish Delivery I ballsed up my weapons management (2ikea4me) and ended up having to take them out with dumb-fired Sidewinders. I don't think I ever took ground fire during the whole attack run, not sure if that was intended behaviour or not.

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Yeah, don't know what is happening, but I've checked on 3 different missions and all 3 there were lead computers turned on (Hold the Line/Two Towns and the one with the two FARPS around Bullseye in Russia, Blue Maykop and Red MinVody)


Edited by Shadow KT

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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5 hours ago, rossmum said:

 

It is. AO and Mugga run aerobatics servers with boatloads of mods on and you can join without all of them regardless of IC, the technique Dirt Merchant posted presumably works just as well for other mods as it does for the Skyhawk.

 

Alpen - are the SAM sites live/covered by anything else, out of curiosity? The one time I flew a strike against them on Swedish Delivery I ballsed up my weapons management (2ikea4me) and ended up having to take them out with dumb-fired Sidewinders. I don't think I ever took ground fire during the whole attack run, not sure if that was intended behaviour or not.

 

That's a long time ago, mate 😉 The mission is a bit different now.

 

2 hours ago, Shadow KT said:

... were lead computers turned on...

 

 

What do you mean by that?! That they're on weapons free and alarm status red? Yes, they are.


Edited by Alpenwolf

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55 minutes ago, Alpenwolf said:

What do you mean by that?! That they're on weapons free and alarm status red? Yes, they are.

I mean that when you jump in a vehicle, you can use the Enter key to "Lock" another vehicle and the game will give you a cheat lead indicator.

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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1 hour ago, Shadow KT said:

I mean that when you jump in a vehicle, you can use the Enter key to "Lock" another vehicle and the game will give you a cheat lead indicator.

 

The fire solution option is off. Can't tell you what's causing that now.


Edited by Alpenwolf

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  • ED Team
18 hours ago, LoneS said:

 

Did you just actually agree with what I said and somehow got confused?! I don't dispute not one word of what you said. Except for the apples and oranges part. I was only replying to a user who was comparing the A-4 to SRS and other applications.

 

Samuel_Johnson_by_Joshua_Reynolds_2.png

 

Yeah, you're right, I got confused, carry on.

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On 6/9/2021 at 9:06 AM, Dirt_Merchant said:

 

You know, I really was serious about his points being good, and valid - but his mouth foaming and hand waving at the slightest mention of adding something to the server, plus his pessimistic attitude about the community in general just rubbed me wrong.

 

to me the issue is dead until @Alpenwolfdecides its not - I'm sure we'd all love the A4 to become an officially sanctioned module (would be nice if ED threw the team a bone and let them keep it open, and still add it to the roster), and we all know its not going to happen in the short term so its a dream suspended for now.

The fact that you don't see the truth in what he is saying about the community leads me to believe that you are either new here or willingly indulge in blissful ignorance. Most people are too lazy to do something as simple as read the briefing (myself included) or go through files updating a plane. To make things worse there is always those who care more about winning than anything else no matter if they have to cheat. Giving them for example the ability to use the SFM A-4 is just saying "I dont care what you do" and sadly those minority would destroy a player base that took so long to build up.

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Just now, Supersabre said:

The fact that you don't see the truth in what he is saying about the community leads me to believe that you are either new here or willingly indulge in blissful ignorance. Most people are too lazy to do something as simple as read the briefing (myself included) or go through files updating a plane. To make things worse there is always those who care more about winning than anything else no matter if they have to cheat. Giving them for example the ability to use the SFM A-4 is just saying "I dont care what you do" and sadly those minority would destroy a player base that took so long to build up.

 

lol your laziness apparently extends to not bothering to look at a forum join date too. You've literally added nothing to the discussion - which is moot anyway as Alpen has rendered a decision. Cool self own - smart and insightful!

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The fact that you don't see the truth in what he is saying about the community leads me to believe that you are either new here or willingly indulge in blissful ignorance. Most people are too lazy to do something as simple as read the briefing (myself included) or go through files updating a plane. To make things worse there is always those who care more about winning than anything else no matter if they have to cheat. Giving them for example the ability to use the SFM A-4 is just saying "I dont care what you do" and sadly those minority would destroy a player base that took so long to build up.
The simple truth of the matter is that this is a free game, this is a free server, and the A-4 is a free module. And the sad reality is that everything public is almost always eventually pissed on. I would have loved to see the A-4 on here as evident from my previous posts. The circumstances in which we operate however means that it will be more of a hassle than a benefit.

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Server News:

 

- Operation Swedish Delivery will go online in about 30 minutes.

- If anything, I'm on TS so let me know.

- Oh, don't forget to provide me with some feedback afterwards, please. As always, much appreciated.

cold war 1947 - 1991.jpg

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9 minutes ago, Dirt_Merchant said:

 

lol your laziness apparently extends to not bothering to look at a forum join date too. You've literally added nothing to the discussion - which is moot anyway as Alpen has rendered a decision. Cool self own - smart and insightful!

blissful ignorance then

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