OT: YF-22 vs YF-23

[PythonOne]

I don’t want this thread to become a flame war but I was just curious after watching a small documentary on the YF-23, why did it lose? I remember I read that the YF-22 was chosen due it its conventional shape? But didn’t the YF-23 perform better? Any info that would enlighten me would be appreciated.

 

And also, one small question, there was a red hour glass symbol at the belly of the YF-23 when it first flew, upon seeing that, orders came from top officials to have it immediately removed, why was that? Was something offensive about the red hour glass symbol?

[Pilotasso]

F-23 had bigger development risks and costs and less potential to grow, it was also decided that pure RCS and speed figures where the balckwidow excelled were no longer the most important factors with the demise of the soviet union. Besides lockheed martin was heavily lobied since early 90's. It just elbowed almost everyone else out of the fighter business in the US. Not only that but in other aerospace markets as well.

[Force_Feedback]

The F-22 had TVC already on the prototype, the black widow is one of the most, if not the most beautiful plane ever made, especially in white. And I'm sure the production model wouldn't get an ugly fat duckish nose. It was faster, stealthier and more maneuvrable aerodynamics wise (if the VF-22 would have its nozzles locked). Did I say it was gorgeous? Oh, it had a bigger weapon bay too. Conservatives (funny, in this case, as both are still ahead of their time) won :(

[Pilotasso]

If you look back the Raptor was the most skidish of the 2 in the prototype phase. But it realy came arround in the development program, I believe Both the Raptor and black widow would have very similar capabilities today except that the widow would be much more costly than the raptor. For excample the exaust ports required extensive maintenance to keep the thermal tiles in order just like the space shuttle. The tail of the plane was probably the most expensive part of the plane to build and maintain.

F-22 has also a costly price tag associated to the engines because its ceramic tilting nozzles are hard to built but they dont require much constant maintenance, at the end of their operational life they just replaced by another pair. The F-23 couldnt do this, you had to babysit its fiery a$$, kinda like keeping a baby happy with tooshie powder :D

[SuperKungFu]

yea the YF-23 had a pretty radical design (cool nonetheless but untested). Like Pilotasso said, there were risks. Especially the tail design, i believed it was called the Pelikan tail <-- not sure if i spelled that right, it was named after the guy who designed it.

 

Anyway, good question about the hour glass, I'm still waiting to find that one out.

[PythonOne]

So does the current F-22A today outperform the YF-23 in terms of speed, agility...etc. It would be a shame if it didn't.

[Pilotasso]

Both planes top speed are classified, then and now, both planes are/would be limited to mach 1.8 due to skin preservation reasons (thermoplastics) though their arframes could have allowed much superior speeds if a short life cycle for the skin could be allowed.

[Aeroscout]

Hmm, I actually herd that the rapto out proformed the 23, but the 23 was better in some ares. i think they are quite evenly matched.

 

as for the one looking better, i hve to say the F-22. The F-23 looks... well.. hard to explane. I just don't like it.

 

The F-23's name is the black widdow, do that Hour glass thing might have been made to resemble the actual spider. (Just a wild @$$ guess.) and i have no idea why they demanded to have it removed.

[S77th-konkussion]

I *think* the F22 has received some sort of engine modification or redesign since it was unveiled. (after the competition)

[Aeroscout]

ya, that could be...

[CanadaDave]

I saw a documentary on the YF-23 a while ago that mentioned the hourglass. If I recall correctly (and assuming the documentary got it right) the team put it on in the middle of testing as a fun thing to make it look more like its namesake spider. It took the USAF a while to notice, but when they did they insisted it be removed since it was viewed as unprofessional and potentially embarrassing if the press noticed.

 

Probably the same sorts of killjoy brass that that frown on nose art, IMHO.

[S77th-konkussion]

I can't find much of anything on the red hourglass-but I'm at work so I can't spend too much time on it. There is some commentary (speculation) that the DoD was kind of pissed off with Northrup & Mikkie-D. They were apparently both having a bit of bad luck with massive cost overruns on the B-2 (northrup) and McD. was reeling from the cancellation of some naval bomber (A-12).

 

On the flip side- Lockheed had impressed the hell out of some key people with the project we know as the "wobbly goblin" being completed early and UNDER budget. (F-117) So it may not have been all about the planes themselves..

[Anytime]

Politics - some bean counter decided to sole source LHM for all future fighters! Be interesting to see who gets the next Bomber.

[Sealpup]

Be interesting to see who gets the next Bomber.

 

Lockheed and Boeing will muscle Northrop out to the side, then turn on each other in a bloodbath that would make any given episode of Celebrity Deathmatch pale in comparison.

 

I'd pay money to watch :D

[dodger42]

How much would you give to be the guy in the red helmet?

 

YF-23 looks awesome. There was an old school flight sim that had you ion the Black Widow... cant recall the name of it. Anyone???

 

/D

[Angelll]

The answer is. They choosed F-22 instead of F-23 because mostly important people in US are stupid like G. B.

[PythonOne]

The answer is. They choosed F-22 instead of F-23 because mostly important people in US are stupid like G. B.

 

*sigh* what did i say in the very first sentence of this thread, i do not want this thread to become a flame war. This has been an intelligent talk so far, keep it that way, and keep politics out.

[Force_Feedback]

Politics do matter in such cases, those jobs don't get themselves created, and those shiny fighters to dominate foreign skies don't come cheap.

[Dudikoff]

I would agree that they chose the YF-22 because of it being a more conventional design. When the Soviet Union collapsed, the reason these aircraft were developed also disappeared and I guess it was much easier to sell something that looks as an evolutionary step forward rather then something more radical, as was YF-23. Plus the fact that Lockheed had stronger background than Northrop and probably better connections..

[dodger42]

I used to have it, and I don't recall the name of it..................It installed from floppies.

 

Found it. Jetfighter II.

 

It was a really sweet game.

 

More @ Migman.

[Black_Hawk]

Didn't they remove the hourglass because of the aircrafts RCS? I'm not sure but I think that they stated that in the YF-23 documentary.

[Anytime]

no, someone with enough rank didn't like it.

[S77th-konkussion]

Politics - some bean counter decided to sole source LHM for all future fighters! Be interesting to see who gets the next Bomber.

 

Well- it always plays a role in every procurement decision. But it doesn't mean that the company on the short end of the stick this time will continue to be. You can bet that if Lockheed hosed up a project -they'd be cut off in a heartbeat.

[Aeroscout]

Found it. Jetfighter II.

 

It was a really sweet game.

 

More @ Migman.

 

Nice. Do you have ingame screenshots?

[dodger42]

Nice. Do you have ingame screenshots?

 

I looked around for about 15 minutes and couldn't find any, though I'm sure I will find some with further searching :)