Having trouble with cold start training mission.

[DaveRindner]

As title says. The problem comes early, when it is time to align INS. The voiceover and highlighting is kind of confusing as to what set to what. To make the problem worse, entering INS data causes DCS to crash.

[Lucky15]

I concur both points, as a new Mirage owner getting to grips with acronyms in French, I had to repeat that part 3 times before getting it right. It would be better if the 3 switches were highlighted as seperate events.

 

Also Chuck's guide details a completely different process for aligning the INS leading to further confusion.

 

You could instead set your INS to always be aligned in the M2000 special options at the main DCS menu. I haven't tried the training mission yet with it enabled to test the effect as I only found this out today.

 

Well how about that, my crash log is too big to attach...

Edited June 25, 2018 by Lucky15
Attachment of crash log failed

[baltic_dragon]

Hey,

 

I will look into this. Also if you have NTTR I would advise to use the Nevada version of the training!

[Kappi]

I concur both points, as a new Mirage owner getting to grips with acronyms in French, I had to repeat that part 3 times before getting it right. It would be better if the 3 switches were highlighted as seperate events.

 

Also Chuck's guide details a completely different process for aligning the INS leading to further confusion.

 

You could instead set your INS to always be aligned in the M2000 special options at the main DCS menu. I haven't tried the training mission yet with it enabled to test the effect as I only found this out today.

 

I'll attach a crash-dump shortly as I'm not on my gaming PC at the moment.

 

 

Well, it´s not a completely different process. The training mission only uses one step before the alignment process, the VEI mode, where the PCN (the big box where you can enter stuff) is powered up but the gyros remain off, so you can enter your data without accidentally starting the aligning process.

 

Chuck turns the PCN directly into the ALIGN mode and only starts the process then by VAL.

 

 

I don´t want to throw around the term RTFM but the training mission also recommends that a little cockpit overview and parts of the instruments should be known.:music_whistling: It´s part of the game to read a manual and sniff around the plane/helicopter before starting the trainings, in every modules training mission.

[Lucky15]

I can start the jet and align the INS ok now thanks to Chuck's guide :thumbup:

Hey,

 

I will look into this. Also if you have NTTR I would advise to use the Nevada version of the training!

 

A good thing I bought that map then. I can confirm this training session runs ok on it though.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Lucky15

[DaveRindner]

I do have NTTR. But Training cold start mission is set in Georgia.

[baltic_dragon]

You have the same both in Georgia and in Caucasus. The only difference is that there is no ILS landing in NTTR and no Red Flag training in Caucasus.

 

And NTTR ones are more recent. When I'll have time, I will update the Caucasus too with the set of new VOs.

 

As for the alignment, the way it is described in the training mission is how it's done in real life - but as Kappi pointed out there really isn't that much of a difference between the training and Chuck's guide.

[DaveRindner]

I dunno , I feel that there is some kind of mental disconnect between myself and M2000 startup tutorials. I am doing the cold start in Nevada. After entering INS cords and its time to enter altitude.

Placed Data Selection Knob to ALT.

Then I hit a mental block.

"Now You can set feet or meters with Left or Right Windows" RIGHT THERE I have zero clue what windows is it referring to. I don't see anything that remotely shows FEET or METERS. Windows what windows? Then instructions fade of the screen as mission waits for you to press SPACE, after entering ALT data, which I cannot do! If I press SPACE it continues, but startup is now wrong. Because the descriptors it uses are not clear!

[DaveRindner]

The blinking ALN light button that is suppoused to be pressed, according to tutotial, is refusing to be pressed. Clicking on it, does nothing, the light keeps blinking. I bet, as with other tutotials for other systems, outside of DCS, like in my day career, the issue is same. The tutorial leaves out some small minor detail, that is not small an minor, or fails to describe what the feedback of action should be. This has caused innumerable hours of student pain, in so many walks of life.

[DaveRindner]

I am sorry but these guided training missions do not work for me. I cannot tell what the switches are set to, the graphics are just not working for me. Pressing buttons , that are specified to be pressed, fails to press when clicked on. RAZBAM needs to review these training material. It is working poorly. Or perhaps I am just a bad student.

[DaveRindner]

The radio radial dials are f'ed seriously. Regardless of how bright I set gamma, I cannot tell the mode that switch is set to. Not at all. Tutor is saying set to M, but I cannot tell as there is no discernible pointer on the dial.

[Kappi]

You need to move the pilot a little forward to better tell the position of that knob. Otherwise turn on the console lighting to illuminate the white point on the knob which also improves visibility ;)

[Lucky15]

I dunno , I feel that there is some kind of mental disconnect between myself and M2000 startup tutorials. I am doing the cold start in Nevada. After entering INS cords and its time to enter altitude.

Placed Data Selection Knob to ALT.

Then I hit a mental block.

"Now You can set feet or meters with Left or Right Windows" RIGHT THERE I have zero clue what windows is it referring to. I don't see anything that remotely shows FEET or METERS. Windows what windows? Then instructions fade of the screen as mission waits for you to press SPACE, after entering ALT data, which I cannot do! If I press SPACE it continues, but startup is now wrong. Because the descriptors it uses are not clear!

 

The windows referred to here are the co-ordinate data displays

 

Sent from my SM-T585 using Tapatalk

[baltic_dragon]

Hey,

 

Sorry to hear that. Never had this kind of feedback before, so i don’t really know what I could change, also I can’t really come up with more straightforward instructions (perhaps because I’m not a native English speaker). My advice would be to go through the manual first and learn what is what in the cockpit, check the INS description theere etc. Hope this helps!

 

Also, you have to move around the pt quite a lot, move forward and to the sides plus zoom to be able to tell what is what sometimes. Do you use TrackIR?

[DaveRindner]

I don't see any white point on the dials. On dials that have a white line, are still confusing, becouse I cannot tell the direction that dial is facing. Rotating a dial places the white line as pointing at two different options. But becouse there is no shading, its all dark, it is impossible to tell what the dial is set too. M2K is the only module I have this problem in. My gamma is set to 2.2, but regardless, engine switches are lost in black. I have no idea which is ON/OFF. Its really bad. What in the bloody heck is goin here. I ask myself. I increase Gamm to MAX 3.5. All I get is pure grey and I still cannot see the switch settings.

[DaveRindner]

There is a disconnect between instructions and actual user experience.

I am at a loss as to how to enter INS coordinates.

When I go through procedure, I set the dials, PRESS 2 for N latitude, then try to punch in coordinates on kneeboard, and INS panel does not acknowledge clicks. I press numbers with mouse, but beyond first digit, no numbers are accepted. I do not why, and tutorials provides no explanation. "In case that INS pad refuses to accept numbers, do the following;" This is missing. Blinking ALN button, refuses the press. It is confusing. Whether in Georgia or Nevada, 3/4 of time INS entry procedure crashes M2K and DCS. Thats on the developer.

There are other important details as to dials. Maybe it is a French thing, maybe it is just how the 3D cockpit is lit, but many of the rotary dials are difficult to impossible to tell where they are set to. INS selector is excellent example. Is the pointer 'DOWNLINE' or 'UPLINE' . It is is not explained. And in many lighting conditions, it is shaded so flat, that there is no up or down. Trial and error rotation just end with DCS crash! So having a look at at whats going on in M2K during startup is probably warranted.

Engine control switches, same thing. ON/OFF can't tell. Follow start up procedure, turn them on(single click on each), then hold START button down for 1 second. Nothing, no engine start, no error message.

As I said, there is a disconnect between instruction and actual user experience.

[Emilio_Ger]

I just checked the mission in NTTR, to see how understandable it is. There is a small mistake in the VO, the instructor tells you to enter East on longitude coordinates but the correct one would be west. But I don`t share the same experience as Dave, I think the INS alignment is pretty clear and I never had a crash neither.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Emilio_Ger

[DaveRindner]

An obvious solution to voice directed tutorial missions, is an error check. If the user makes an error, the voice over would say so "Looks like you made a mistake at setting 'FUNCTION'. Correct and Press Space." Or something similar. Right now, the start up can be hosed up and down, and tutorial is not effected, and user often is unaware that error has been made.

[DaveRindner]

OK, thank but where does it say that the coordinate displays are windows. All they show are two dashes.

Edited June 26, 2018 by DaveRindner

[Kappi]

It's mentioned in the training mission and the manual.

"...when set to the ALT mode, the left window shows the altitude in feet, while the right one shows it in meters."

[baltic_dragon]

An obvious solution to voice directed tutorial missions, is an error check. If the user makes an error, the voice over would say so "Looks like you made a mistake at setting 'FUNCTION'. Correct and Press Space." Or something similar. Right now, the start up can be hosed up and down, and tutorial is not effected, and user often is unaware that error has been made.

 

It would be great, but the mission editor has its limits. Unfortunately, you cannot do that in most cases, and there where you could it's simply not worth the effort (it requires a lot of additional triggers envisaging all the possible mistakes that could be made). As I say, the training missions are there to help you see how things work in the pit but only AFTER you've read the relevant section in the manual.

 

I understand your frustration, but as I say - I've never had similar feedback on training missions from anyone and my guess is that you are doing something wrong, there is something wrong with your graphics settings, you're not using zoom etc.

 

BTW, thanks for pointing out the E-W thing in one of the missions, completely slipped my mind, will fix it ASAP.

[Johnny Dioxin]

If anyone wants they can access my pictorial start-up guide. It was for the kneeboard, but you can also access it on a tablet or phone whilst going through the procedure on the PC:

 

LINK

 

Doesn't fix any issues with the training missions, but might help you get the aircraft started and/or INS aligned.

[DaveRindner]

OK, a little better thank you. However snags I am encountering.

 

On page 10Start, after setting the rotaries to ALN and STS, I get no countdown, and ALN light is blinking, and never stops.

 

On page 13Start , IFF rotary is nonfunctional. The rotary is not responding to mouse button clicks, or mouse center rotary. IFF selector is kinda dead.

 

On page 17Start After setting fuel and APU fuel as shown, then pressing Engine Start Switch for 1 second. I get no lightoff. The engine remains cold.

The Fuel Cutoff Switch and its cover are not clearly shown, or described. Which way is DISABLED? Is it supposed to be in right-most position or in left-most. This is the kind of missing detail, or incorrectly shown, that I was referring to. I tried it both ways, but nogo on engine start.

 

At this point I Quit mission, then launch mission to try again. Same fail. Tried it 3X. Same result no lightoff. Same fails as described above .

 

The start up slide show is not working in my case. I cannot tell where I fail to perform a step correctly. Up to page17. Very frustrating.

 

But your assistance is appreciated. Thank you.

[baltic_dragon]

Make sure you don't touch the throttle and it remains in OFF position. If you touch it before, the engine might not start and this I think is a bug.

 

If you looked in the manual (page 39) you would clearly see:

 

5. Fuel Shut-Off Valve Switch (with cover). After opening the cover, you can set the shut-off fuel valve in the closed (left) or open (right) position. Disabled = closed.

 

As I said, if you look up the stuff in the manual first it might help a lot.

[Johnny Dioxin]

OK, a little better thank you. However snags I am encountering.

 

On page 10Start, after setting the rotaries to ALN and STS, I get no countdown, and ALN light is blinking, and never stops.

 

You did press the "VAL" button? This is what actually kicks off the alignment process and starts the countdown.

 

On page 13Start , IFF rotary is nonfunctional. The rotary is not responding to mouse button clicks, or mouse center rotary. IFF selector is kinda dead.

I do believe that ED have not yet implemented IFF properly - so it doesn't matter what you do, it won't work anyway, or it will be an on/off generic function. Not entirely sure of the current state of IFF. The info is there in case you are instructed to set it in a mission briefing (for procedural realism).

 

On page 17Start After setting fuel and APU fuel as shown, then pressing Engine Start Switch for 1 second. I get no lightoff. The engine remains cold.

The Fuel Cutoff Switch and its cover are not clearly shown, or described. Which way is DISABLED? Is it supposed to be in right-most position or in left-most. This is the kind of missing detail, or incorrectly shown, that I was referring to. I tried it both ways, but nogo on engine start.

As BD said - make sure the fuel cut-off is definitely disabled and ensure the throttle is off before you even start setting the switches for start-up.

 

I've not had the issue you are having, so I don't know what else to suggest. I've had a break from DCS for a few months and one of the first aircraft I flew on return was the Mirage and I used my guide for the procedure and it all worked as it should.

 

 

Very frustrating.

 

But your assistance is appreciated. Thank you.

You're welcome - I can understand your frustration but do stick with it, because it is well worth it :)

 

If you could save a track of your attempted start-up and attach it to a post, we'd have a better chance of seeing where you are going wrong.

 

Good luck, anyway.

 

PS - Dave, have a quick look here:

 

 

Hope that will help you.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Brixmis