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Night Lighting


wilbur81

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It’s kind of weird at NTTR for me. I made a small intercept mission a few days ago at 00:30 and flew directly over Las Vegas. The city was almost impossible to see, the lightning was extremely faint.

I really cant do much with that info, do you have any screenshots, what are your graphics settings, etc... I mean gamma can have a big effect, do you run any mods?

 

to be honest, i think this is the biggest problem with night lighting and i don't think you would have to post a screenshot, because it is so obvious. i think "manuel_108" did exagerate a bit though: i would not say "impossible to see", but "unrealistically dim"...

 

i don't think that this is a bug, that only occurs with special settings, but just city lighting being too dim and render disstance for lights being too low.

you could probably improve it by dialing up the gamma, but this can't be a valid solution, since you would have to change it back for daytime...

 

i think it is also obvious when you look at official dcs promotional material. you won't find any night scenes, for obvious reasons

(apart from this pair of screenshots from persian gulf at night, which looked stunning actually with brightly lit urban areas).

 

to make it clear... i'm not talking about game-breaking bugs here, but only complain about night lighting looking significantly worse than day lighting (which looks really great, as most can agree on) and only for urban areas, where street lights and city lights seem too dim and fade out too quickly (moonlit country-side, without build-up areas looks good and realistic already).

 

of course, there are also some very specific problems related to night flying, like problems with cockpit illumination or f.e. the infamous ramp-floodlight-not-illuminating-aircraft-issue, but these are somewhat isolated bugs or missing features, that should maybe just be postet in the bug-section.


Edited by twistking
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You said it...

 

In the official dcs promotional material you won't find any night scenes...

I believe that's because all the maps are "unrealistically dim", and this

begs to be corrected!

 

It suffice to have a look at the images posted by MonnieRock to realize this.

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You said it...

 

In the official dcs promotional material you won't find any night scenes...

I believe that's because all the maps are "unrealistically dim", and this

begs to be corrected!

 

It suffice to have a look at the images posted by MonnieRock to realize this.

 

The Store page for NTTR has a night shot.


Edited by NineLine

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Nineline,

 

Have you ever been to Las Vegas?

Have you ever flown into or out of, Las Vegas at night?

 

Yes on both counts (although my eyeballs dont have long exposure times like those images do), the issue still comes down to balancing performance and looks, something that keeps getting ignored. My response here is night lighting has come a long way, as we go along, I am sure we will see even more improvements.

 

I wont agree with the comments that improvements havent happened. I am more interested in FLIR improving that having a perfect Vegas strip. Priorities.


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[...]I am more interested in FLIR improving that having a perfect Vegas strip. Priorities.

 

While I do agree that the planes systems must be an absolute priority over eye candy, I'd like to emphasise that several planes in DCS don't have any NVG or INS to navigate by night. That leaves us with VFR and the need to get well lit cities to follow our flight plans. At the moment, we can't even spot a city as big as Las Vegas further than 5nm, that's a little embarrassing.

 

I'd happily trade useless vapor wings for good night visuals allowing us to fly our jets by night . As you said : priorities.

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I'd happily trade useless vapor wings for good night visuals allowing us to fly our jets by night . As you said : priorities.

 

Not sure how you think trading wing vapors will bring you better night lighting. Again, performance... draw distance effects performance quite a bit, and again, its a balancing act. I hope to see these things improve as the engine improves, but there is always going to be a performance cost.


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Just a useful note from someone who's dabbled in photography:

 

A lot of those IRL night shots of Vegas were taken with a slow shutter speed (long exposure) to increase the brightness of the lights, and does not accurately reflect what we would see with our eyes.

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While I do agree that the planes systems must be an absolute priority over eye candy, I'd like to emphasise that several planes in DCS don't have any NVG or INS to navigate by night. That leaves us with VFR and the need to get well lit cities to follow our flight plans. At the moment, we can't even spot a city as big as Las Vegas further than 5nm, that's a little embarrassing.

 

I'd happily trade useless vapor wings for good night visuals allowing us to fly our jets by night . As you said : priorities.

 

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A lot of those IRL night shots of Vegas were taken with a slow shutter speed (long exposure) to increase the brightness of the lights, and does not accurately reflect what we would see with our eyes.
While it can be overdone, most of the time it is done that way just to match our eyes' sensitivity with camera so it does look exactly like that IRL.

From what I know performance won't change if light source is brither - just my 2 cents. For me lights are too dim too. Check the Su-25T's cockpit lights - barely usable. At least Eagle's landing and taxi lights are finally decent. Thanks.

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NineLine, where are the stars and constellations? No amount of gamma on my rig shows them. I do miss that.

 

While I'd love to see realistic representation of the sky, I think we should focus on the main subject of this thread : visibility at medium/long range of artificial lights.

 

Concerning my previous comment on the vapor wings and others non essential visual effects (I'm thinking of rain drops here), what I meant was that I'd wish that the time spent on creating those effects was redirected to optimize the engine to handle artificial lights at night.

 

It must be easier to create visual effects, the customer base will be easily pleased by those (I know I am), but I do think that night operations should be high on Eagle Dynamic's priority list. In the current state of the game, depending on the time and location set, more than half of the day is non flyable to me. What if someone decide one day to offer a Nordic theater of operations where an almost permanent dusk can settle for months ? Night operations are essentials in modern aerial warfare ; a significant amount of raids have been launched at night in the last three decades by a western coalition, we should be able to reproduce these type of operations and extend the playability of the current scenarios.

 

I really do understand that the development team is facing some technical limitations. I'm not asking for a change overnight (haha ! - sorry :x), just an aknowledgment of the issue and the fact that this is not something that will be left behind.

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While I'd love to see realistic representation of the sky, I think we should focus on the main subject of this thread : visibility at medium/long range of artificial lights.

 

Concerning my previous comment on the vapor wings and others non essential visual effects (I'm thinking of rain drops here), what I meant was that I'd wish that the time spent on creating those effects was redirected to optimize the engine to handle artificial lights at night.

 

It must be easier to create visual effects, the customer base will be easily pleased by those (I know I am), but I do think that night operations should be high on Eagle Dynamic's priority list. In the current state of the game, depending on the time and location set, more than half of the day is non flyable to me. What if someone decide one day to offer a Nordic theater of operations where an almost permanent dusk can settle for months ? Night operations are essentials in modern aerial warfare ; a significant amount of raids have been launched at night in the last three decades by a western coalition, we should be able to reproduce these type of operations and extend the playability of the current scenarios.

 

I really do understand that the development team is facing some technical limitations. I'm not asking for a change overnight (haha ! - sorry :x), just an aknowledgment of the issue and the fact that this is not something that will be left behind.

 

I certainly dont think night lighting is 'finished' or 'final' my comments really came on the fact that there were claims nothing had been done with it since the release of 2.0. The draw issues and visibility are large reaching issues beyond just night lighting, so I am sure we will see more improvements as they go along. They really dont apply to raindrops or vapor, creating of new effects isnt stopping or slowing anything with night lighting.

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Just a useful note from someone who's dabbled in photography:

 

A lot of those IRL night shots of Vegas were taken with a slow shutter speed (long exposure) to increase the brightness of the lights, and does not accurately reflect what we would see with our eyes.

 

I have lived here in Vegas for 18 years.

 

At night when I walk out my front door, the town appears moderately lit to my naked eye. When I drive out of town into the desert, the immediate area around me is PITCH BLACK. Almost nothing is visible unless illuminated by car lights. When I look toward Vegas, its is BRIGHTLY lit.

 

I feel DCS still needs a lot of work in lighting. I never fly A10C at night due to DCS 2.5 short comings in this area.


Edited by lasvideo

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. I never fly A10C at night due to DCS 2.5 short comings in this area.

 

 

I must be crazy then, I just went for a nice jaunt in the Yak-52 with only the flashlight lighting up the key points on the dash.

 

You say you drive out in the desert and its pitch black, so why is DCS stopping you from flying the A-10C? I am confused by that last statement.

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Static fires from the ME don't give off light, its a performance issue, and really nothing to do with the topic of night lighting.

 

Things like spotlights and certain terrain lights are reported, but its all performanced based right now, the specs for DCS has grown drastically, we have to be able to maintain a level that people with weaker machines can still enjoy it.

 

Again, performance... draw distance effects performance quite a bit, and again, its a balancing act. I hope to see these things improve as the engine improves, but there is always going to be a performance cost.

 

 

Nineline,

 

That is why there is an options menu for people to adjust for their systems specs. They have the options low,medium,high,ultra,extreme draw distance. Currently now, there are no options to increase the graphical fidelity of the night for people who are not Performance limited.

 

Happy Simming,

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I must be crazy then, I just went for a nice jaunt in the Yak-52 with only the flashlight lighting up the key points on the dash.

 

You say you drive out in the desert and its pitch black, so why is DCS stopping you from flying the A-10C? I am confused by that last statement.

 

Because generally its so damn dark when flying the A10C in DCS 2.5 at night ( in any map) , I cant see s***! ;) Surrounding landscape and buildings, when outside the Vegas area, are enveloped by the dark.. Even the illuminated dials in the cockpit are hard to see. And when flying thru Vegas things are much darker then in real life.

 

This is why I went back to 1.5. I could see stuff at night in that version.


Edited by lasvideo

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Because generally its so damn dark when flying the A10C in DCS 2.5 at night ( in any map) , I cant see s***! ;) Surrounding landscape and buildings, when outside the Vegas area, are enveloped by the dark.. Even the illuminated dials in the cockpit are hard to see. And when flying thru Vegas things are much darker then in real life.

 

This is why I went back to 1.5. I could see stuff at night in that version.

 

So when is the last time you tried 2.5.

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You say you drive out in the desert and its pitch black, so why is DCS stopping you from flying the A-10C? I am confused by that last statement.

 

I also lived in Vegas and agree with lasvideo. While the desert around Vegas may be pitch black, the Vegas "strip" is VERY bright and can be seen at a long distance. Example: The light from the Luxor casino alone is 42 Billion candela (yes, billion with a B) and can be seen 275 miles (440km) away. I agree the DS lighting has improved (and I'm very happy to have flood lighting again in the A-10), but at least for NTTR some further tweaking is required to approach real world lighting visibility. Even with the improvements, It is still really hard to see taxi lights thru the A-10's tinted windows.

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I can not speak for everyone. If you feel I am incorrect please say so. If you agree, please say so as well.

 

Topic

Consumer's opinion/concerns of the current state of graphical fidelity of how night is being represented in DCSW 2.5.

 

 

 

Identified Dissatisfaction

 

I believe that most of the people in this thread are not speaking solely about NTTR and the Las Vegas vicinity. NTTR/Las Vegas vincinity is being used as a well know example for light pollution at night to constructively, maturely, communicate with you, Nineline, to pass on to the developers, the consumer's opinion/concerns of the current state of graphical fidelity of how night is being represented in DCSW 2.5.

 

I truly believe the opinions/concerns are pointed to all the DCSW 2.5 maps beyond just NTTR/Las Vegas vicinity. Overall, the representation of night, night lighting and the graphical fidelity of night, is what we are trying to communicate our opinions/concerns with you, Nineline, to forward to the developers because you are our Community Manager. We are not here to debate the semantics of chosen examples. We are here to report the overall topic of how night is being represented in DCSW 2.5

 

Solution

 

Debating if there is, if there is not an opinion/concern/problem in the consumer's eye is not the solution. We are all here with the desire to make things better, Nineline. Not to get into debates with you.

 

What do you need from the community to make this happen? Data, references, photographs, tracks, miz files, create support tickets, etc?

 

Please make an outline/format of exactly what you need, Nineline, to be able to present this to the developers as Community Manager.

 

I am 100% confident the community of consumers will gladly give you all the data you need and more if you give them an outline.

 

Working as a team

 

We are all on the same team, Nineline. We all share the same desires to see DCSW be the best there is. Work with us, we work with you, you work with ED. It's a win/win for everyone. This is not about the community against you, nor ED.

 

Let's all stay on the same team and work towards the goal we all share.

 

Go Team DCSW !!!

 

 

Happy Simming,

Monnie


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Even with the improvements, It is still really hard to see taxi lights thru the A-10's tinted windows.

 

Things like that are easier to work with for sure, I will check it out (I have been spending too much time in the Yak anyways) and report as needed, The Strip probably doesn't model the strip down to the last light bulb, and it was never the intention either. I really feel cities and such have improved, Vegas is a special case, it's all light for sure.

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...

 

You've got some good thoughts there, but to be honest, i think there is no need to go into that much detail on it.

I mean, just look at those WIP night screenshots fromt he PG map, that were posted a while ago, they look very, very good actually and show, that ED absoultely knows what they are aiming for.

 

I don't know if the tech behind those screenshots isn't implemented yet, or if the screens were simply made with super high gamma or some config tweaks, or if they were just super carefully crafted to make the very best of the engine.

However it is safe to say, that these screenshots are not (yet) representative of the experience of night flying in dcs in general (at least for caucasus and nttr that is) and i would assume that most of us, would be super happy, if their dcs (on high settings) would look as good at night.

(and if it would do that, without noticeble pop-ins, as brighter lights would make pop-ins more obvious and would need longer render distance for the lightmaps to compensate for that... that is something, you do not really notice on screenshots obviously)


Edited by twistking
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Case In Point: Started the A-10C Basic Qual campaign just for giggles and the first "mission" is just the narration over the AI C-130 coming into Batumi.

 

Herc lands, taxis to the very well illuminated ramp and there's NO light of any kind falling on the Herc. The model is almost pitch black on both sides despite huge banks of lights on poles all around the terminal building.

Edit To Add: The Herc also cast no shadow across the ramp...

 

"Light" is triggering alternate ground texture tiles to represent pools of light (which is an improvement to be sure) but it's not illuminating anything nor is it transmitting very well. Position Lights and Strobes just vanish at about 2000 feet away. You should be able to find a wingman sporting those Disco Light Strobes on the A-10C for MILES. Even NVGs don't help.


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