Improved stability and dedicated server - Discussion

[Wags]

The question is, then, how do we create the kind of battlefield dynamics that everyone wants without overloading the map? Someone mentioned a lack of best practices a couple of posts back, and this would definitely be an area where some good practices, or even hard-coded methods, would help in that case. As would some improved clean-up mechanisms — if nothing else than to allow for longer-term runs in general.

 

 

Not to start that discussion, but there is a very clear reason why everyone — including the server owners — run Caucasus as opposed to any of the terrain modules… ;)

 

It really depends on the server hardware and map. I’d start with no more than 24 player slots and 250 units. Then increase in steps based on play testing results.

 

Thanks,

Matt

[Snoopy]

I have watched a few twitch streams from your group, and I dont see constant warping, thats not to say you arent seeing some issues, just that I havent been lucky enough to witness it, so might not be constant. You were a tester, you know how hard it is to replicate these issues at times, I do MP, and I have seen warping before, I dont see it constantly, so its hard to say.

 

Twitch is not a valid reference for 476th sorties. Only a handful of us stream and even then we don’t stream every sortie. Anyways, I said my piece. If I keep going I’ll get into trouble.

[jester_]

While I agree for the most part, in the interim, I would suggest that MP mission builders re-examine the composition of their missions... particularly for the Caucasus map that already has a huge object count. While the dedicated serer should certainly help, we'll also be doing our best to improve stability beyond just the DS.

 

Thanks,

Matt

 

I fully agree with that. One of my biggest complaints with the mission making community in DCS is their tendency to cram every possible thing they can into the mission, whether it be scripts, or units, or whatever. I understand why they do it, but some of those big missions are a massive charlie foxtrot.

 

 

On the flip side though, I hope you and I would agree that the overall longevity of DCS, as well as the creative health of the MP scene would greatly benefit from the implementation of these fixes sooner, rather than later. With respect, we've been hearing "dedicated servers" tossed around for five or six years, for example. We know the engine struggles with obscene numbers of units; wouldn't it make more sense to ease the stress on the engine a bit, allowing mission designers to create more freely? In the long term, I would hope that's on the board of potential fixes.

 

I appreciate your response Matt :)

[NineLine]

Twitch is not a valid reference for 476th sorties. Only a handful of us stream and even then we don’t stream every sortie. Anyways, I said my piece. If I keep going I’ll get into trouble.

 

Sorry, I dont know how to help with that, you know what we need to report issues. If its constant it would show during a stream, if you have more data, send it my way, I have no issue reporting anything and everything.

[Teeter]

Honestly my biggest qualm with MP is the ridiculous load times and startup lag.

[Wags]

I fully agree with that. One of my biggest complaints with the mission making community in DCS is their tendency to cram every possible thing they can into the mission, whether it be scripts, or units, or whatever. I understand why they do it, but some of those big missions are a massive charlie foxtrot.

 

 

On the flip side though, I hope you and I would agree that the overall longevity of DCS, as well as the creative health of the MP scene would greatly benefit from the implementation of these fixes sooner, rather than later. With respect, we've been hearing "dedicated servers" tossed around for five or six years, for example. We know the engine struggles with obscene numbers of units; wouldn't it make more sense to ease the stress on the engine a bit, allowing mission designers to create more freely? In the long term, I would hope that's on the board of potential fixes.

 

I appreciate your response Matt :)

 

We all want the same thing, and the DS and other network improvements should help make that a reality. There just needs to be a realistic balance of mission composition and what the engine can manage for online play. There are some very talented mission creators out there and I’m sure they’ll find that right balance.

 

DS is very much in the fast track now that 2.5 is out.

 

Thanks,

Matt

[hannibal]

just wanted to say thanks to wags, nineline and all the ED team, along with the community.

 

if there was not DCS, there would only be xplane for me, and there is no blowing up of stuff there.

 

thanks for a moment for comment and thanks that there is even such thing as a DCS world..

[jimiC]

the solution is to make mp missions more basic isn't ideal One of the reasons I got tired of mp in dcs 10 years ago was because the servers were basic . It was all target practice this and playground that .

 

Finally some brilliant people are creating some amazing gameplay with what they have to work with. They're asking for help on that by improving on what has undeniably been bereft of improvement for a very long time on the development end. Simplifying missions to the point of boredom doesn't help ed or the community

 

Servers like dynamic dcs and blueflag need to be embraced and supported and helped to flourish . An active online community is the lifeblood of a flight sim

 

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk

Edited July 12, 2018 by jimiC

[jester_]

We all want the same thing, and the DS and other network improvements should help make that a reality. There just needs to be a realistic balance of mission composition and what the engine can manage for online play. There are some very talented mission creators out there and I’m sure they’ll find that right balance.

 

DS is very much in the fast track now that 2.5 is out.

 

Thanks,

Matt

 

It appears that we are both pretty much saying the same thing. Thanks for responses Matt.

 

P.S. I will eat my boots if you give me a shoutout in the next video ;)

[Wags]

As mentioned, we are actively working on means to allow larger missions and retain stability. However, there will always be limits.

 

We were asked what can be done in the meantime to improve stability, and we provided the best solution.

 

Thanks,

Matt

 

the solution is to make mp missions more basic isn't ideal One of the reasons I got tired of mp in dcs 10 years ago was because the servers were basic . It was all target practice this and playground that .

 

Finally some brilliant people are creating some amazing gameplay with what they have to work with. They're asking for help on that by improving on what has undeniably been bereft of improvement for a very long time on the development end. Simplifying missions to the point of boredom doesn't help ed or the community

 

Servers like dynamic dcs and blueflag need to be embraced and supported and helped to flourish . An active online community is the lifeblood of a flight sim

 

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk

[backspace340]

It really depends on the server hardware and map. I’d start with no more than 24 player slots and 250 units. Then increase in steps based on play testing results.

 

Thanks,

Matt

 

From my personal experience, there seem to be several buckets of issues people are plagued with that don't all seem to be due to the size of the mission (though the first one definitely is!), in no particular order:

 

1. Joining the MP Servers - it takes a long time to load the missions for the biggest servers, and part of the problem is that a lot of the loading takes place AFTER the loading screen disappears while the player is looking at the slot screen. All sorts of problems are caused by the player trying to join a slot before the loading is finished - from waiting 5 minutes for the cockpit to appear, to just crashing straight away. This can obviously be reduced by the player getting more RAM and a faster SSD (and being more patient), by ED making the loading screen hang around until it's genuinely finished loading (and speeding it up if possible), and by the mission makers adding less units.

 

2. Desync issues - there are a multitude of issues that are caused by a desync between what the server sees and what the client sees. This one can only be fixed by ED. This is currently causing:

- Old cargo crates to stick around, even after the server has deleted them. This can cause issues that force the player to respawn, if they try to hook a crate that the server thinks is not there.

- Cargo crates to hover in mid-air when another player puts them on the ground (and yes, you can crash into them) and to swing round the helicopter like a mad Yo-Yo while they're carrying the crate on the sling.

- Units to be movable that the server has set to not be movable (i.e. players can move the carriers or base defence units).

- Damage to runways which only persists until the player disconnects and reconnects - making runway denial missions pointless.

- Players have to connect and then disconnect and reconnect before they can use artillery properly in MP.

- It means servers can't clear up dead units to reduce the load because they don't disappear for clients.

 

3. Freezes - these seem to be caused by the core game, but when the server freezes all of the players do too. Again this seems to be an ED problem to solve. The easiest way to see this is to add a few ground units and send them off-road across the map - the entire server (and all of the players) will freeze while the pathfinding is worked out - if you send them on the road then it's fine.

 

4. Missing servers - I've heard lots of reports of players on the same version of DCS as the server not being able to find it on the server list - sometimes they have to refresh the list multiple times before it appears, other times there's nothing they can do to make it appear. I see probably 1-2 people a day on one server have this issue. Those players can ping the server IP, they can access a website running on the server's machine, but they cannot see the server in the list or connect directly to it (they get 'Server Offline'). Either there's something ED can fix or there's an ISP/DNS issue that the players need help solving.

 

5. Rubber-banding - I have to admit I don't see this very much, so I can't help explain why. It doesn't happen very much on the DDCS server where I primarily play - DDCS doesn't have any scripts running on the actual server so that might explain this one, but I've no idea.

 

6. Server restarts - these might always be necessary, but they're handled a bit messily by the game currently and if someone joins while it's starting up it will crash. That can be worked around by owners scripting the ports to be closed, but that should / will hopefully be handled by the dedicated server program.

Edited July 12, 2018 by backspace340

[BlueFalconMed]

the solution is to make mp missions more basic isn't ideal One of the reasons I got tired of mp in dcs 10 years ago was because the servers were basic . It was all target practice this and playground that .

 

Finally some brilliant people are creating some amazing gameplay with what they have to work with. They're asking for help on that by improving on what has undeniably been bereft of improvement for a very long time on the development end. Simplifying missions to the point of boredom doesn't help ed or the community

 

Servers like dynamic dcs and blueflag need to be embraced and supported and helped to flourish . An active online community is the lifeblood of a flight sim

 

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk

 

AGREED!!! I know ED says they're working on it.... but..... IDK.... F-18 is fun yet incomplete; yet to be expected this early. Love the idea of using the 3rd parties to complete the airplane modules and it seems to be working well.

 

However, me personally, I need more in MP to keep investing...

 

MP game play is SUBPAR in server support.

 

API access issues plus even simple things like in-game-triggers cause huge issues with aircraft refueling and carrier ops in MP.

 

Love what has been built so far, however, it seems bitter sweet considering how MUCH I, and many others I know, have invested in the hope ED could expand (which it has) as well as build a more Competent, Stable, Server-Friendly system (which it has minimally).

[bainsy]

Why doesn't ED consider working closely with the people that run the popular MP servers? Consider them Developers, SMEs, whatever, but embrace them and good things will happen. Seems like a win/win to me.

[HiJack]

Thank you for the updates Wags. TAW will definitely be interested in hosting two “official” servers, one in North America and one in Europe.

 

One tip on how to shortening the waiting when joining MP server. Just load a dialog where the player must select a side and read the briefing for that side! Lock the dialog “continue...” button until player have loaded the cache and preloaded textures. When continuing the player selects slot.

 

I’m looking forward to your announcements regarding multiplayer. :thumbup:

[Wags]

Why doesn't ED consider working closely with the people that run the popular MP servers? Consider them Developers, SMEs, whatever, but embrace them and good things will happen. Seems like a win/win to me.

 

But we do. One of testers runs Blue Flag in fact.

[The_Pharoah]

Just FYI:

 

- I get a black screen every time I join a server...only the first time (thank goodness) but every time without fail. I have 32gb RAM.

- when i do load in, it takes a while before my cockpit actually shows up but thats been mentioned above

[Bigskill]

But we do. One of testers runs Blue Flag in fact.

Yes appreciated that, but BF doesn't have the cool stuff like Dynamic DDCS that Drex created, It feel really a Dynamic war.

Get in touch with him, and with him fix these problems.

BF is fun but under my honest opinion DDCS has something more to give to DCS World.

[Wags]

Yes appreciated that, but BF doesn't have the cool stuff like Dynamic DDCS that Drex created, It feel really a Dynamic war.

Get in touch with him, and with him fix these problems.

BF is fun but under my honest opinion DDCS has something more to give to DCS World.[/quote

 

We are in contact.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Wags

[CoBlue]

I'm extremely glad this problem is being dealt with, as it's very much needed:thumbup:.

[StandingCow]

Looking forward to the dedicated server news this weekend. I think the dedicated server has been talked about for almost a decade now, it will be nice to get news on it finally.

 

 

Thanks for all the info Wags!

[Mars Exulte]

A 100 player server with hundreds of ground targets running in the wild is the only thing that is acceptable.

 

 

As I've said many times, sloppy mission design and kitchen sink approach are the leading causes of server issues. Really? This isn't an MMO, it is not a persistent world, and even if it was THAT IS NOT A REASONABLE EXPECTATION. Jesus, people. Use some common sense.

 

There are relatively few games that achieve that level of activity, and the ones that do make MASSIVE COMPROMISES TO MAKE IT HAPPEN and/or are of a LIMITED SCOPE. Just because there is not a hard limit on object or player count does not mean it is feasible to go batshit crazy and expect to not have trouble. That sort of stuff is a tremendous workload under even ideal conditions.

 

For a self proclaimed programmer you don't seem to know much @@ But then, like 90% of the population here, you all think you're experts that could do it better but miraculously, none of you are.... you're all here, complaining on a forum instead of working your magic to make the world a better place, cure cancer, and bring us quantum computing.

[NineLine]

Well, I can't speak to a specific game because of rules, but its been done, and successfully.

 

There are things that can resolve these issues, such as better handling of garbage collection, error/exception handling, and what not (DCS server should not flat out crash because of a single script error). As I said, there are other game(s) out that that offer scripting support for missions, dedicated server clients for Linux and Windows, as well as an open set of modding tools, file validation, and also allows hosting servers of 100+ people with tons of AI and ground assets, server browsers, etc. You know what it takes to make them stable? Just throwing more hardware at it. That doesn't work for DCS. A multiple processor, multiple GPU, 144 gigs of ECC ram, and we still had these issues.

 

Its hard to draw comparisons to other games, especially when the PFM in one module probably has more going on internally than most of those games do over all... ok that might be a little extreme, but the point is, DCS is more complex, larger and doing more at any given time than most games out there. Just do a map comparison some time to these other military sims/games, you wont find many running DCS size, plus doing all the complexity of FMs better than military grade sims, plus everything else it does. If it was easy to make the perfect MP environment, and ED controlled all variables, we would have done it already. Its not that simple, and we do not control all variables.

[pyromaniac4002]

:bye_2:

 

I heard there was some sort of head count going on, suggesting that because there were only so many people vocalizing their distress over the state of DCS the problem wasn't so bad, something like that.. Add my name to the list please.

 

Over the years I've been playing it, multiplayer in DCS has ranged from occasionally frustrating to continuous, unrelenting misery. I'm sad to say I'd estimate we've spent most of our time somewhere in the bottom 2/3rds of that scale. If it weren't for the fact that the subject matter of DCS is a lifelong passion of mine (as it is for so many others here), based purely on the performance issues I'm sure I wouldn't have stuck with it half as long as I have. It's my sincere hope that ED focus the appropriate resources they need to make the improvements we desperately need in a reasonable amount of time. Solidifying the base game may not immediately bring cash in and help keep the lights on, but it's the most important job ED has if DCS is to thrive in the future. I look forward to seeing what the newsletter offers on multiplayer developments.

 

As I've said many times, sloppy mission design and kitchen sink approach are the leading causes of server issues. Really? This isn't an MMO, it is not a persistent world, and even if it was THAT IS NOT A REASONABLE EXPECTATION. Jesus, people. Use some common sense.

 

There are relatively few games that achieve that level of activity, and the ones that do make MASSIVE COMPROMISES TO MAKE IT HAPPEN and/or are of a LIMITED SCOPE. Just because there is not a hard limit on object or player count does not mean it is feasible to go batshit crazy and expect to not have trouble. That sort of stuff is a tremendous workload under even ideal conditions.

 

For a self proclaimed programmer you don't seem to know much @@ But then, like 90% of the population here, you all think you're experts that could do it better but miraculously, none of you are.... you're all here, complaining on a forum instead of working your magic to make the world a better place, cure cancer, and bring us quantum computing.

 

 

Forgive me, I'm not familiar with any "designed by Zhukov TM" multiplayer missions, but I've tried my hand with building a number of them by now and I'm in daily contact with a lot of people who build a lot more and a lot better than I do. We're not the weak link in the chain. If anything, the community is the strongest link ED has at their disposal. It's fairly outrageous how much time and effort I've personally seen spent exploring the limits of what DCS will support and fixing what issues we're able to. We do a very good job of making things work with a very limited degree of control over what's actually going wrong inside DCS. Very few software developers can say they benefit from similar generosity.

 

But since you know better and you're apparently contented to live in a 16 player, minor asset presence DCS: World, maybe you're done with the :chair:? We're just expressing our experiences and wishes that they might be improved. Was your objective to push for less stability in multiplayer and no dedicated server?

[ScopeDope]

Just coming here to add my support for enhanced MP performance, and to add that like many here I've purchased a good number of modules that I otherwise would have had no interest in, if not for MP. MP does sell modules and you'll find that the new players coming in because of the hornet, will likely do the same when they see that they can help out their team in MP by buying that transport helicopter, etc that doesn't get featured in the sexy blow-stuff-up trailers that the hornet/a10/ etc does.

 

Where that goes awry is when said modules start breaking in that same MP environment that they bought them for. I rarely rage quit anything, but I have been on a DCS break for some time, due to sling loading in MP servers just flat out not worth the frustration of game crashes they are causing.

 

Glad we are getting the spotlight on the issue for a while here, hope it can turn into something productive for the community.

Edited July 12, 2018 by ScopeDope

[NineLine]

I heard there was some sort of head count going on

 

No such thing, as Wags has posted, ED was waiting to get to the 2.5 mark, and start stabilizing the sim before anything like dedicated servers could be considered, not to mention stabilizing MP. Its known to be something people wanted, but it had to be at the right time, or it could have just caused more turmoil.