Mirage 2000 outturning F-18 at low speed- is that accurate?

[Aries144]

I flew some 1 vs 1 dogfights against 5 or six other players the other night. Fights begin after the merge. 2 heat seeking missiles and guns. I flew against F-15s, Su-27s, and F-18s. I beat them all with no losses- and I'm not that good.

 

I was able to out turn and out accelerate the F-18s at speeds as low as 110 knots, which I found strange.

 

Is the current flight performance accurate or is there an issue?

Edited July 14, 2018 by Aries144

[razo+r]

I assume you mean against human pilots and not AI?

[Aries144]

Yes, human pilots.

[Schmidtfire]

That is pretty good! At least for one turn... ;)

[myHelljumper]

That is pretty good! At least for one turn... ;)

 

Nailed it :).

[jojo]

Is the current flight performance accurate or is there an issue?

 

You can ask the same to ED about the Hornet...

[Aries144]

These weren't single turn fights though. Extended fights with multiple turns, turning on the deck at 120 knots, etc.

 

If that's how the aircraft is supposed to perform, that's fine as far as I'm concerned. I thought the difference in thrust to weight between the Hornet and 2000, and the Hornet's small turn radius at low speed, would make the Hornet superior at low speed, low altitude.

[jojo]

These weren't single turn fights though. Extended fights with multiple turns, turning on the deck at 120 knots, etc.

 

If that's how the aircraft is supposed to perform, that's fine as far as I'm concerned. I thought the difference in thrust to weight between the Hornet and 2000, and the Hornet's small turn radius at low speed, would make the Hornet superior at low speed, low altitude.

 

Currently ED Hornet has been reported as dragging too much at low speed, including by real life Hornet pilot.

Hornet is still early access.

 

And maybe you aren’t nearly as bad as you thought after all :thumbup:

[Aries144]

Ah, go take your 100 years of excellent aircraft, missiles and rifles and hold a parade in front of a Baguette shop why don't you.

 

:D:D

 

Thank you for the information on the Hornet. I want these aircraft to perform as close to reality as possible, compared to one another. Without the proper relative performance, the historical "what if" element that I want to explore just isn't there.

[Badlego]

110 knots? is the hornet even flying at that speed? the mirage like all other delta wings have no stall speed. they always provide lift as long as the engines provide enough thrust against the increasing drag. All non delta planes like the hornet should fall like stones at that speed...or should be close to...the actual flight models of all planes may have some issues, of course, but in RL i would still say that the mirage can outturn all othrr non delta planes at low speeds....

 

I must not say that you sure did something wrong when you ended up at 110 knots in a dogfight...

[jojo]

Ah, go take your 100 years of excellent aircraft, missiles and rifles and hold a parade in front of a Baguette shop why don't you.

 

:D:D

 

Not sure about what you mean...but I won’t waste time on that topic anymore.

[Ski01]

190 in a turn fight with the M2K is slow - I'm mean in being able to use its advantages. Back at really slow speeds - if everyone back back that slow then it may have just been who was handling their beast well. If you were 110 in the M2K I'd love it. I fly the M2k most, but won't go that slow.

[Coxy_99]

110 knots? is the hornet even flying at that speed? the mirage like all other delta wings have no stall speed. they always provide lift as long as the engines provide enough thrust against the increasing drag. All non delta planes like the hornet should fall like stones at that speed...or should be close to...the actual flight models of all planes may have some issues, of course, but in RL i would still say that the mirage can outturn all othrr non delta planes at low speeds....

 

I must not say that you sure did something wrong when you ended up at 110 knots in a dogfight...

 

You can get the hornet down to 75 knots without crashing you can practically VTOL land it on a road or runway, Not sure about the M-2000 tho not flown it for awhile.

[Aries144]

Not sure about what you mean...but I won’t waste time on that topic anymore.

 

Oh, sorry about that. I was trying to make a joke.

 

I've only just begun to discover French military technology and I'm finding that it's been at the forefront of military technological innovation through the entire 20th century. Everything from innovative rifle designs to excellent missiles like the Mistral, aircraft like the Mirage series, etc. The Famas rifle is astoundingly elegant, very unique, and ahead of its time. The French copy no one! Everything is an original design it seems. It's very interesting to study.

 

Growing up, I never knew about French military designs. I mostly heard about US and Russian designs.

[jojo]

Ok, lets say this is a mutual misunderstanding :smilewink:

 

Back to topic, I think it’s too soon to compare M-2000C Vs Hornet in MP.

Like I said, the Hornet flight model isn’t in final state, and there are too many variables in MP, the pilot being an important one.

 

M-2000C hasn’t to be the underdog in all flight regimes. If the Hornet or F-15 pilot doesn’t play on his strength well enough, this is fair he gets toasted. But in your exemples we don’t know how good were your opponents.

 

I can recommend you TacView software for post flight analysis. The free version already does the job very well.

Edited July 15, 2018 by jojo

[Dragonares76]

Better not forget that the Mirage can bleed all his energy to get a snap shot (guns or IR missiles)

 

If you pull the joystick to convert your energy into a turn, you will do it very sharp and be able to take advantage for a few seconds, gaining enough lead to the opponent aircraft to get a good aim ...

 

If you miss and don't get the kill, so you're vulnerable after that ... and don't do it at too low altitude ^^

 

The Hornet is not as capable as the mirage to do such a thing

 

I often use this kind of maneuver to get a kill in a dogfight

[defeatist99]

These weren't single turn fights though. Extended fights with multiple turns, turning on the deck at 120 knots, etc.

 

If that's how the aircraft is supposed to perform, that's fine as far as I'm concerned. I thought the difference in thrust to weight between the Hornet and 2000, and the Hornet's small turn radius at low speed, would make the Hornet superior at low speed, low altitude.

 

It is how it performs. The hornet has a higher thrust to weight ratio but it has more wing loading than the mirage. It's heavier than the mirage and has slightly less wing surface than the mirage. The mirage is very good at low speed/high alpha.

 

The hornet should have a better sustained turn rate due to the better TWR and less drag at high AoA, but the mirage has an incredibly high instantaneous turn rate. Better than even an F-16 in certain regimes. The hornet also has better acceleration than the mirage but has a slower top speed. The mirage also has a better climb rate.

 

The hornets real advantage is going to be avionics and ordinance. It's much more capable at BVR than the mirage and it will have the HMS and Aim-9X off boresight capability.

 

Edit: I should have stated that the hornet has better acceleration and speed down low, but the mirage has significantly better acceleration at higher mach numbers. The mirage can also pull much more G than the hornet.

Edited August 5, 2018 by defeatist99
added

[defeatist99]

190 in a turn fight with the M2K is slow - I'm mean in being able to use its advantages. Back at really slow speeds - if everyone back back that slow then it may have just been who was handling their beast well. If you were 110 in the M2K I'd love it. I fly the M2k most, but won't go that slow.

 

It's slow speeds is one of it's advantages. It's low wing loading and delta configuration mean a lot of lift especially at higher angles of attack. At combat weight it's got a good TWR so it can sit at low speeds as long as you have fuel.

 

It's really only limited by the FBW under 100kts. There isn't a jet in the sim I've seen beat it in a flat scissor. Which is basically a game of who can fly slower. If your comfortable living dangerously at treetop level doing ~100kts plus or minus, it's pretty easy to drag the energy fighters down and force an overshoot if you are defending.

[Maverick Su-35S]

When (if ever...) the Mirage 2000C's maximum lift coefficient would drop from 1.9 (where it shouldn't be) to 1.25-1.3 (where it should be) when IAS gets below 300kias AND it's maximum engine thrust performance would respect the rules of physics for jet engines that all other fighter jets in DCS seem to respect, then yes, things would be different and the F-18 would own the Mirage 2000C with ease at constant high AoA, but until then..., this remains SOME funboy's game that doesn't take correct and real data accordingly!

Edited April 1, 2019 by Maverick Su-35S

[FSKRipper]

When (if ever...) the Mirage 2000C's maximum lift coefficient would drop from 1.9 (where it shouldn't be) to 1.25-1.3 (where it should be) when IAS gets below 300kias AND it's maximum engine thrust performance would respect the rules of physics for jet engines that all other fighter jets in DCS seem to respect, then yes, things would be different and the F-18 would own the Mirage 2000C with ease at constant high AoA, but until then..., this remains SOME funboy's game that doesn't take correct and real data accordingly!

 

Ah, napkin math at work again. Began to miss you during the last months :thumbup:

 

But its April fools day so maybe I was wrong in taking you for real...

[myHelljumper]

The necro-post is real !

[p1t1o]

Hmmm...doesnt dogfighting at 100kts @100ft go against all known tenets of AA combat?

 

Low + Slow = Sitting Duck, except if other guy is also low + slow

 

Is it a figment of an imperfect sim? (not a criticism, all sims are by definition imperfect)

 

Or a figment of amateur pilots? (against, not a criticism, how many of us have flown fast jets professionally?)

 

Or is it just how it works in practice? (textbooks not always directly transferrable to RL)

[Extranajero]

RAF pilot Ian Black talking about the Mirage 2000C :-

 

“DACT was interesting in the M2000 – if your opponent was new to fighting a delta it could make his eyes water! At the merge the initial 9G+ turn was eye-watering, despite having a single engine it could still reach heights other fighters like the F-16 couldn’t. It also possessed, in my opinion, a far more sophisticated fly-by-wire system – it was in effect limitless. I managed to put a Mirage 2000 into the vertical whilst being chased and held the manoeuvre a few seconds too long – when I looked into my HUD I was in the pure vertical at 60 knots and decelerating ! As we hit Zero the aircraft began to slide backwards and the ‘burner blew out. My heart-rate increased. As the aircraft went beyond its design envelope, the nose simply flopped over pointing earthwards – with a few small turns the airspeed picked up. As I hit 200 knots I simply flew the aircraft back to straight and level. I admit that my opponent did shoot me down, but he did say it looked spectacular. This sort of carefree handling gave pilots huge confidence in the aircraft”

[Maverick Su-35S]

On 6/16/2019 at 11:08 AM, Extranajero said:

RAF pilot Ian Black talking about the Mirage 2000C :-

 

“DACT was interesting in the M2000 – if your opponent was new to fighting a delta it could make his eyes water! At the merge the initial 9G+ turn was eye-watering, despite having a single engine it could still reach heights other fighters like the F-16 couldn’t. It also possessed, in my opinion, a far more sophisticated fly-by-wire system – it was in effect limitless. I managed to put a Mirage 2000 into the vertical whilst being chased and held the manoeuvre a few seconds too long – when I looked into my HUD I was in the pure vertical at 60 knots and decelerating ! As we hit Zero the aircraft began to slide backwards and the ‘burner blew out. My heart-rate increased. As the aircraft went beyond its design envelope, the nose simply flopped over pointing earthwards – with a few small turns the airspeed picked up. As I hit 200 knots I simply flew the aircraft back to straight and level. I admit that my opponent did shoot me down, but he did say it looked spectacular. This sort of carefree handling gave pilots huge confidence in the aircraft”

You didn't mention anything about the engine! Did you manage to windmill restart it from 200KIAS or glided home?

[Maverick Su-35S]

On 7/15/2018 at 11:11 AM, Badlego said:

110 knots? is the hornet even flying at that speed? the mirage like all other delta wings have no stall speed. they always provide lift as long as the engines provide enough thrust against the increasing drag. All non delta planes like the hornet should fall like stones at that speed...or should be close to...the actual flight models of all planes may have some issues, of course, but in RL i would still say that the mirage can outturn all othrr non delta planes at low speeds....

 

I must not say that you sure did something wrong when you ended up at 110 knots in a dogfight...

I like how people like you throw all sorts of statements out of their own imagination with little knowledge. Deltas not stalling eh? Well, you've said "stall speed". Well, for the sake of what you understand, actually no other wing has a stall speed, because the stall has the only correct definition it was born with at the beginning of aviation, not the derived and wrongly understood definitions that they teach you at flight school! If you have some basic knowledge of aerodynamics, what is a stalled condition by definition? Let's see your answer!

Now, an F-18 can maintain 1G even when flying as slow as 80 KCAS (yes, at a lower weight) and of course can slowly maneuver in roll-yaw at the same time, but your wannabe M-2000 lover can't do that without going constantly under 1G when flying below 100KCAS even if being 2 seconds away from fuel starvation. I'm talking facts not biased imagination! The F-16 can also hold 90KCAS for the same condition, again with better handling characteristics even than those of the F-18, not to mention how well above those of the M-2000. Indeed the delta wings (including those of the F-16) perform a bit better (not tremendous, but it counts) at higher and higher altitudes due to small details with big effects, such as the Reynolds number which favors the deltas and provide a somewhat increased L/D ratio compared to denser air, but I don't wanna go off-topic for these details.