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[Not A Bug] Gun ineffective against tanks


Angel101
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Tonks too strongs! :lol:

 

Hi there, I was expecting a little bit more punch from that 20mm.

 

I tested against T-55 and even I unloaded a good burst over the first tank, no hits registered for 0% damage (of course).

 

Then I checked with the A-10C and the only hits registered was from AP ammo.

 

So, I figured out that only the hits that damage the tank are the only ones registered in the debriefing window. (also checked health bars on map).

 

And I read that the gun was extensive employed in Desert Storm by the Marines against tanks with a great success. (I leave here a page from the book "Hornets over Kuwait")

 

Regards

 

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hamBSyL.png

 

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Edited by Angel101
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Unless you shoot it through a little window and kill the driver (not modeled, probably) 20mm aren't going to do squat against most heavily armored vehicles. Heavy tanks today don't use 20mm peashooters for a reason.

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Check the tanks damage bars in the F10 map after your attack.

 

you will be doing damage.

 

Also do your attack runs from the rear of the tank.

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Check the tanks damage bars in the F10 map after your attack.

 

you will be doing damage.

 

Also do your attack runs from the rear of the tank.

 

Checked 0% damage with hornet gun.

 

But A-10C do X% damage... between 15 to 30 AP rounds hits, the tank start burning. HE ammo do 0% damage. (It seems correct to me)

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Do not compare with the A-10 GAU8. Totally different weapon!

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Do not compare with the A-10 GAU8. Totally different weapon!

 

I know, but is just to remark that only AP round is damaging tanks, maybe we can get API round for the hornet.

 

Also I revert to the book about Desert Storm.

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I'm up for API rounds.

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There's a reason there are AP and HE rounds. You are complaining that your HE rounds are not doing the job of AP ammunition.

 

Your last post is what should have been your first one :)

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There's a reason there are AP and HE rounds. You are complaining that your HE rounds are not doing the job of AP ammunition.

 

Your last post is what should have been your first one :)

 

Well, yes... I realised that between test and post :music_whistling:

 

Just discovered later that ammo used in DCS Hornet is just 20_HE :doh:

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Five minutes of googling suggests that the only round we should have is this SAPHEI round: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/pgu-28.htm

 

and that its penetration should be 14mm of RHA (though it doesn't say at what distance, so not a useful source): https://www.quora.com/What-would-an-M61-Vulcan-do-to-a-tank

 

I can't check it right now, but I also think the Hornet cannon can't damage APCs like the BMP/Bradley etc which obviously have much thinner armour than tanks. I've noticed that the Mirage is able to damage more vehicles than the Hornet with it's gun.

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HE Projectiles are Soft,

 

Shooting them at anything with any type of plating is the Equivalent of trying to penetrate a Concrete wall w/ a Paintball Gun and Paintballs.

 

 

HE is for Infantry and Soft Targets.

AP is for Tanks./Armour

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//Not a Bug, Current Cannon doesnt use AP Rounds.

 

It doesn't seem like the USAF or USN have used anything other than SAPHEI (semi armour piercing high explosive incendiary) rounds in the M61 Vulcan since the 80s - so it is a bug if the Hornet is only modelling HE.

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It doesn't seem like the USAF or USN have used anything other than SAPHEI (semi armour piercing high explosive incendiary) rounds in the M61 Vulcan since the 80s - so it is a bug if the Hornet is only modelling HE.

 

SAPHEI / PGU-28A/B is designed to penetrate aircraft, not armour plating.

HEI / M56A3/A4 is designed to fragment and disperse over soft targets and personnel)

API / M53 is designed to penetrate lightly armoured targets


Edited by SkateZilla

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SAPHEI / PGU-28A/B is designed to penetrate aircraft, not armour plating.

HEI / M56A3/A4 is designed to fragment and disperse over soft targets and personnel)

API / M53 is designed to penetrate lightly armoured targets

 

This is really testing my Google-fu, but here General Dynamics (the manufacturer of the round) say that its designed to kill both air AND ground targets (which is why it replaced both the M56 and M53 with one round): https://www.gd.com/news/press-releases/2007/08/general-dynamics-develops-new-version-highly-successful-20mm-pgu-28-ab

 

And then if you go to page 72 of the Nammo ammunition handbook (GDs partner for making the round) - here https://www.nammo.com/globalassets/pdfs/ammobook/nammo_ammo_handbook_aw_screen.pdf -

you'll see that their generic version that's the basis of the pgu-28 can penetrate a minimum of 10mm RHA at 1km (which you'll note is actually better than the API M56 round it replaced). That should be good enough to penetrate a BMP.


Edited by backspace340
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My conclusion is just actually the Hornet shoots HE ammo, and that kind of ammo do 0% damage to heavy armor. Maybe we should get some API rounds (M53) to select via editor.

 

Does anyone have a source for some armour penetration values? The only ones I could find on the fly are those on Wikipedia and I don't trust 'em:

 

M53 API 6.4 mm (0.25 in) RHA penetration at 0 degree impact angle and 1,000 m (3,300 ft) range.

M56A3/A4 HEI 12.7 mm (0.50 in) RHA penetration at 0 degree obliquity at 104 m (341 ft) range.

 

Source given was http://www.aircav.com/cobra/ammo20.html

 

No matter what though, both are not enough to crack the 33mm and up armour of a T-55.

 

I could crack ZSU-23-4 with it already, but needs a lot of ammo due to the Vulcan being a sawed off shotgun in DCS. So I guess the penetration capability of the ammo is reasonable. Wouldn't even try it on a real tank, except for maybe BT-7 or alikes that literally have no armour and can be cracked with MG 151/15s...

 

And so we don't have M53 rounds after all, but just the SAPHEI.

dcsdashie-hb-ed.jpg

 

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The new PGU-28 Was announced in 2007, it was not Deployed to Fleet in 2007,

The Hornet is Lot 20 Mid-2000's Hornet, So it's definately not Simulating the 2nd Generation PGU-28.

 

Need to clarify which round they are simulating.

 

That being Said,

 

Looking at the LUA Data for teh F/A-18C Weapons, it Declares Gun_Mount "M_61":

Which is:

gun_mount_templates["M_61"] = 
{
 display_name =  _("M-61");
 
 gun = dbtype("wGun",
 {
   max_burst_length = 100000,
   rates = {6000},

   recoil_coeff = 0.7*1.3,
 });
 --0043552: Hornet: Gun should not have tracers
 --Tracers are an option but not often used. My suggestion is to keep them by default because they look awesome, and make it a load option or a menu option to not use tracers.
 supply = ammo_supply_mixed({ 
 mixes  = { 
			{1},--HE with tracers 
			{2},--HE without tracers 
	   },
 shells = {
			shell_ref("M61_20_HE"),		 --HE
			shell_ref("M61_20_HE_INVIS"),--HE without tracers 
		}
 });
 
 effective_fire_distance = 1500;
}

 

So The Current early Access Hornet appears to be using HE Rounds, nor PGU-28 or M53


Edited by SkateZilla

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So will we have an API rounds for Hornet in future? Is that planed to be one of future updates for DCS:F/A-18C?

 

I'm not sure of the development path of the gun, will have to wait for an Answer from Wags.

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