AUTO bomb steering line

[shagrat]

Running parallel to the pitch ladder, yes. But still not running through the target designator caret... Swaying left and right when banking to adjust your course.

[Shadow_1stVFW]

Running parallel to the pitch ladder, yes. But still not running through the target designator caret... Swaying left and right when banking to adjust your course.

 

Same experience here

[Schmidtfire]

+1

[Keen]

+1

[Sadist_Cain]

I've been doing my CCRP drops with wings level and rudder only, that gets me on the line but it is very off putting when a bit of bank gets thrown in there.

 

Broken or not though, it's still workable with minimal roll.

[shagrat]

I've been doing my CCRP drops with wings level and rudder only, that gets me on the line but it is very off putting when a bit of bank gets thrown in there.

 

Broken or not though, it's still workable with minimal roll.

That's not the point. If you shut down the HUD use good old word war II methods map, height and course, plus stop watch and calculation, you can do it completely without HUD and ARBS.

 

The idea of the AV-8B Harrier II is to have a modern CAS and bombing platform.

What puzzles me, is that Razbam seemingly struggles with the whole concept, despite good documentation in the NATOPS TAC manual and even the F/A-18C for reference, which implements a 90% identical concept and symbology, minus the TV for designation.

 

So what is the correct behaviour?

The ASL has to go through the target designator. Why? Because the idea is to fly the plane towards (!) the target.

Now, when currently the ASL moves left or right from the designated target point (the caret symbol) and you would steer the plane towards the ASL, you fly away(!) from the target and when rolling wings level, the ASL swings back again...

 

If you look at the screenshot attached you can see the actual target under the caret. Horizon line (white) and the symbology (red) how it should be. The current fix is shown in dashed yellow and still leads you away from the intended target, while you should bank left(!) (blue) to align your flightpath with the target (the perpendicular ASL going through the target and extending indefinitely).

 

 

EDIT: basically all Razbam needs to do is read the DCS x and y coordinates of the target (designator) and put a green line along the z-axis and take care it is only visible in the HUD frame... then calculate the release cue in reference to the bombing triangle.

Edited January 19, 2019 by shagrat

[Keen]

That image comparison/diagram is spot on. Thanks shagrat.

[Shadow_1stVFW]

 

One thing I always found interesting is the information is there. You can see the steering cue points you in the correct direction and I usually use that to help when I can't see the target

[mvsgas]

I know I'm not changing nobodies mind, nor am I trying to. This is just my understanding of the systems as it is describe in the A1-AV8BB-TAC-000. I don't know how it works in the real aircraft.

I know this is not a F/A-18, A-10 nor A-7 so it does not matter how it works there.

 

So, the manuals tells us the ASL is a reference to the release point, not the target

para2.5.1

It requires that the target be designated by any method described previously, by the pilot, in order to provide command steering to an appropriate release point.

 

What is the release point?

page 36

bomb release point. The point in space at which bombs must be released to reach the desired

point of detonation. (JCS Pub 1)

 

So the ASL (release point) is just part of the equation, we also need the position of the target and where is the aircraft.

Page 2-2, para 2.2.1.1

In AUTO deliveries the X and Y components define target location. This location is compared

to aircraft location in order to determine range to the target and steering error.

 

How does the main computer know where is the target and the aircraft? Target information comes from the ABRIS and the HUD and aircraft information form the air data computer (ADC) and INS.

page 2-4 pare2.2.1.1

On Day and Night Attack aircraft the ARBS is the only height-above-target measurement

device available that is actually tied to the target.

page 2-8, para 2.2.1.6

When tracking is achieved, the ARBS is the primary source for height abovetarget information. The ARBS is primary because it is not subject to barometric inconsistencies, and it is not affected by changing terrain features between the aircraft and the target.

 

:mad:

Why does the ASL move when we roll the wings?

Because aircraft attitude changed, this change the release point.

 

:mad:

But the manual states to follow the ASL.

page 2-10, para 2.2.2.1.1

Note

The ballistics computations in the MC adjust for wind. In AUTO or CCIP, the pilot should not make any adjustments for wind. He should follow the ASL (in AUTO) or put the CCIP cross on the target (in CCIP).

 

Right but we need to think about how it works

page 2-9, para 2.2.2.1.1

Before Release the flight path of the aircraft and the weapon are the

same. One of the major factors influencing the flight path of the weapon is the velocity vector

imparted to it by the aircraft. This also happens to be the only factor which the pilot can control, so it bears some study.

 

So, when you see this

[ATTACH]202632[/ATTACH]

 

First, align the velocity vector with the target.

[ATTACH]202633[/ATTACH]

 

Now the velocity vector is align, we followed the ASL to get there, and when we roll level

[ATTACH]202635[/ATTACH]

 

Well, look at that, the aircraft (which weapons are attach) the target and the release point (ASL) are all align

 

:mad:

Well is not perfectly align!

Your right, so what do we do? Simple, follow the ASL, simple correction to the right, keeping the VV align with target.

[ATTACH]202642[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]202643[/ATTACH]

Edited January 20, 2019 by mvsgas

[shagrat]

I know I'm not changing nobodies mind, nor am I trying to. This is just my understanding of the systems as it is describe in the A1-AV8BB-TAC-000. I don't know how it works in the real aircraft.

I know this is not a F/A-18, A-10 nor A-7 so it does not matter how it works there.

 

So, the manuals tells us the ASL is a reference to the release point, not the target

 

 

What is the release point?

 

 

So the ASL (release point) is just part of the equation, we also need the position of the target and where is the aircraft.

 

 

How does the main computer know where is the target and the aircraft? Target information comes from the ABRIS and the HUD and aircraft information form the air data computer (ADC) and INS.

 

 

:mad: Because aircraft attitude changed, this change the release point.

 

:mad:

 

 

Right but we need to think about how it works

 

 

So, when you see this

[ATTACH]202632[/ATTACH]

 

First, align the velocity vector with the target.

[ATTACH]202633[/ATTACH]

 

Now the velocity vector is align, we followed the ASL to get there, and when we roll level

[ATTACH]202635[/ATTACH]

 

Well, look at that, the aircraft (which weapons are attach) the target and the release point (ASL) are all align

 

:mad:

Your right, so what do we do? Simple, follow the ASL, simple correction to the right, keeping the VV align with target.

[ATTACH]202642[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]202643[/ATTACH]

That's nice and you use the DMT and ARBS for a visual daytime delivery.

Which can be done by the old Harrier.

 

Now, try the same with the Night Attack (all-weather) version and do not use the DMT/ARBS, but the INS by designating a pre planned waypoint, see figure 2-42 (DESG on the EHSI), and BAUTO, GAUTO or RAUTO is used as Altitude source for release point calculation (figure 2-51). And if the ARBS cannot calculate the release point (yet) and you are not aligned it shows the course to the target.

2-51 (...)During AUTO delivery a quasi ASL is presented on the HUD when the apex of the computed bomb trajectory is below the elevation of the designated target. In this situation the ASL is provided to the target (not the release point) based on inertial data (or best available data). Refer to Figure 2-53 detail B. (...)

 

Whatever mode and designation combination you use, the ASL should never sway and swing with bank.

If you are aligned with the target and bank right, the ASL swings to the right(!) away from the target! The more bank angle the further away from the target it swings, basically indicating you should turn further away from the target. If you level out again when over the ASL, it swings back to the left again, leaving you off course. If you use the same mode and principles in the F/A-18C this works as advertised. WPDSG align Velocity Vector with ASL, wings level, minimum last second corrections and hold weapon release until release cue drops through VV. Rinse and repeat...

 

EDIT: and that is all fine as long as the target designator is visible in the HUD.

Try your "alignment" at 20.000 ft with a hard deck at 16.000 ft with a Target at Sea level... when you cannot see the target designator caret in the HUD and the ASL is your only steering reference.

EDIT 2: in all your pictures you were basically in a CCIP 20 degree dive delivery! Going straight towards a potential threat. The actual idea of a AUTO delivery is to keep the altitude high enough to not enter the WEZ of MANPADs and SPAAA like a Igla or Shilka.

In your last picture you are at about 13400 ft barometric. Judging from the screenshot before you dive about 1.000 ft per 3.5 seconds or more. Now with 14 seconds to go until bomb release and still accelerating, you likely ended up at 9-8.000 ft above MSL or lower before you could drop?! That is well inside the WEZ of most AAA etc. now what was the target elevation?

Edited January 20, 2019 by shagrat

[Flagrum]

:mad: Because aircraft attitude changed, this change the release point.

 

I doubt that. In fact, the ASL moves in the direction of bank, i.e. away from the TVV and usually away from the target. Only if you level out, the ASL swings back and shows a somewhat reasonable solution.

 

This happens instantious, the moment you bank, the ASL swings waaaay off the target. That a short duration of of bank can not cause the release point to wander 10...20...30 degrees.

 

The attitude of the aircraft does not change the weapon trajectory. Ok, it may do actually, considering that a release at a bank angle of 90+ deg. may not be as clean as a separation at level flight - but we are talking about moderat to minor bank angles here anyways. But once separation occured, the weapon is free-falling and whatever the aircraft attitude was before, does not matter anymore. Just the point in space where the separation has happened.

 

If we leave out any wind, the release point should always be between the aircraft and the target. But the ASL shows otherwise.

[Shadow_1stVFW]

I know I'm not changing nobodies mind, nor am I trying to. This is just my understanding of the systems as it is describe in the A1-AV8BB-TAC-000. I don't know how it works in the real aircraft.

 

I know this is not a F/A-18, A-10 nor A-7 so it does not matter how it works there.

 

 

 

So, the manuals tells us the ASL is a reference to the release point, not the target

 

 

 

 

 

What is the release point?

 

 

 

 

 

So the ASL (release point) is just part of the equation, we also need the position of the target and where is the aircraft.

 

 

 

 

 

How does the main computer know where is the target and the aircraft? Target information comes from the ABRIS and the HUD and aircraft information form the air data computer (ADC) and INS.

 

 

 

 

 

:mad: Because aircraft attitude changed, this change the release point.

 

 

 

:mad:

 

 

 

 

 

Right but we need to think about how it works

 

 

 

 

 

So, when you see this

 

[ATTACH]202632[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

First, align the velocity vector with the target.

 

[ATTACH]202633[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

Now the velocity vector is align, we followed the ASL to get there, and when we roll level

 

[ATTACH]202635[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

Well, look at that, the aircraft (which weapons are attach) the target and the release point (ASL) are all align

 

 

 

:mad:

 

Your right, so what do we do? Simple, follow the ASL, simple correction to the right, keeping the VV align with target.

 

[ATTACH]202642[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH]202643[/ATTACH]

You're not wrong. I've been saying the same for months. If you can see the Target the ASL, as implimented is sufficient. But at that point you aren't really using it, you're using the flight path marker and target. The ASL is still only accurate when your wings level. This falls apart quickly with 5, 10 whatever degree of Bank angle introduced, which is the problem. The ASL should be rich stay in the release point.

 

As for the Target point vs release point GENERALLY speaking, they'll be in line with your flight path. But in high crosswind situations you can find the release point laterally displaced from the Target.

 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[shagrat]

 

As for the Target point vs release point GENERALLY speaking, they'll be in line with your flight path. But in high crosswind situations you can find the release point laterally displaced from the Target.

 

And that is what the TAC manual refers to as "indicating the release point". The system corrects for crosswinds so the ASL will be offset to either side of the target (but constantly) to correct for the bombs wind drift during TimeOfFall...

[shagrat]

I doubt that. In fact, the ASL moves in the direction of bank, i.e. away from the TVV and usually away from the target. Only if you level out, the ASL swings back and shows a somewhat reasonable solution.

 

This happens instantious, the moment you bank, the ASL swings waaaay off the target. That a short duration of of bank can not cause the release point to wander 10...20...30 degrees.

 

The attitude of the aircraft does not change the weapon trajectory. Ok, it may do actually, considering that a release at a bank angle of 90+ deg. may not be as clean as a separation at level flight - but we are talking about moderat to minor bank angles here anyways. But once separation occured, the weapon is free-falling and whatever the aircraft attitude was before, does not matter anymore. Just the point in space where the separation has happened.

 

If we leave out any wind, the release point should always be between the aircraft and the target. But the ASL shows otherwise.

Consider a knife-edge pass! The nose and trajectory of the aircraft points exactly towards the target and the calculated release point. Now, while keeping that trajectory you bank 90° (knife-edge pass), but still fly towards the release point only the bank angle of your wings change. While the ASL should still indicate the course to the release point, in the current mock up it is all over the place...

[mvsgas]

Auto is not meant for level bomb delivery, it tells you on the manual, target must be in the HUD field of view.

para 2.5.1

Once designated, the azimuth steering line (ASL), time-to-go, and release cue (if in range)

are displayed if the target is in the TFOV of the HUD as shown in Figure 2-53, detail A.

 

Shagrat, you mention INS deliver, the first line of para 2.4.1

An INS designation is a visual designation requiring the target to be in the HUD TFOV and the INS sensor mode selected.

 

Of course I show ARBS during the day time, is suppose to be used during the day time. Only the Targeting pod or the LST is used at night.

 

You mention in para 2.5.1, Read it and note

During AUTO delivery a quasi ASL is presented on the HUD when the apex of the computed bomb trajectory is below the elevation of the designated target.

This saying the target might be on a hill and aircraft is below, for this you would use loft, which is not implemented.

 

If you know there are AAA or SAM why attack with bombs? If you don't know, why fly over the target?

 

Here is me using the targeting pod at night on a Shilka with laser bombs

[ATTACH]202656[/ATTACH]

 

I PM Fangsout, in other post he seem to know how the RL systems works. With any luck, he will come in here and tells me your wrong, this is how it works.

[shagrat]

Auto is not meant for level bomb delivery, it tells you on the manual, target must be in the HUD field of view.

 

 

 

...just shaking head here, I succumb. I'll contact Razbam outside the forums.

[shagrat]

Ok, seems the INS mode is used not only for Waypoint designation but also with the DMT for visual acquisition. As I said in my post, when you use the EHSI and a pre planned Waypoint for a classic H-H-H strike e.g. incapacitate a known runway at a well defended airport and don't want to waste millions of taxpayers money on smart bombs to take out a static runway that can't jump aside, you would use this. Refer to 2-41 for EHSI DESG function.

That is when you can't and should not(!) have the target in your HUD.

A steep dive in AUTO mode does not make sense unless you try gaining energy for a loft delivery...

[shagrat]

Auto is not meant for level bomb delivery, it tells you on the manual, target must be in the HUD field of view.

From the same section: (...)The ASL is limited in the lateral direction to

the HUD total field of view (TFOV)(...)

...and that is what it refers to: the steering cue arrow guiding you laterally to the ASL.

Shagrat, you mention INS deliver, the first line of para 2.4.1

 

 

Of course I show ARBS during the day time, is suppose to be used during the day time. Only the Targeting pod or the LST is used at night.

...or pre planned waypoints or coordinates you put into a waypoint.

 

You mention in para 2.5.1, Read it and note

 

This saying the target might be on a hill and aircraft is below, for this you would use loft, which is not implemented.

Apex of bomb trajectory...

 

If you know there are AAA or SAM why attack with bombs?

Because it is your job and the order was to attack a static target with Mk-83 bombs?! I mean why send an aircraft if the pilot shits his pants and not use TLAM?

[Schmidtfire]

@mvsgas

 

Look at the excellent screenshots. Now compare in-game. Fly Av-8B, fly A-10C, fly F/A-18C.

The AUTO bomb steering line on the Harrier does not work as supposed to. Even if you manage to hit targets with that, cudos to you. But it is not how the system is supposed to work. I have made a lot of CCRP releases in DCS and It took me about 10sec to realize that something is off.

 

Shagrat is correct.

[mvsgas]

In DCS Bombs are free. In RL, why not waste the money on the guided munitions if it negates endangering the millions spend on the aircraft and the pilot?

JDAM tail kit=24,877

This is a direct PDF link

https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/FOID/Reading%20Room/Selected_Acquisition_Reports/15-F-0540_JDAM_SAR_Dec_2014.PDF

AV-8V=31,750,000

This is a direct PDF link

http://www.secnav.navy.mil/fmc/fmb/Documents/98pres/misc/wBOOK.pdf

 

If USMC uses AV8B they won't be alone.

For example, a DAS mission is

tasked with destroying a C2 facility. This target is col-

located with a Fan-Song radar that supports SA-2s

(SAM). The target is 450 miles from the forward oper-

ating base and requires aerial refueling from KC-130s.

As the strike package (AV-8Bs, F/A-18s, and EA-6B)

approaches the target area, the Fan-Song radar targets

an AV-8B in the strike package. The EA-6B directs

jamming and F/A-18s fire HARMs at the Fan-Song ra-

dar. The enemy is now faced with a dilemma, continue

tracking with the Fan-Song radar to support the

launched SAM and have HARMs impact radar, have

the Fan-Song radar neutralized by jamming or shut

down the radar and be pulverized by precision-guided

weapons (PGWs) aimed at the C2 facility.

This is a direct PDF link

https://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/MCWP%203-23%20Offensive%20Air%20Support.pdf

 

Is not about what make since to us, is about how the systems work. General purpose bombs are suppose to be deliver between 35 and 45 degrees dive according to pilots.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3711512&postcount=17

But he did not fly an AV8B so not sure if it matters.

[mvsgas]

@mvsgas

 

Look at the excellent screenshots. Now compare in-game. Fly Av-8B, fly A-10C, fly F/A-18C.

The AUTO bomb steering line on the Harrier does not work as supposed to. Even if you manage to hit targets with that, cudos to you. But it is not how the system is supposed to work. I have made a lot of CCRP releases in DCS and It took me about 10sec to realize that something is off.

 

Shagrat is correct.

 

I do, I only bomb in Auto mode in the AV-8B. But comparing to any other aircraft does not matter, what matters is how it works in the AV-8B. If your telling me is not like this in the real aircraft when you flew it, cool, that all I need to know, subject is done. But if you have never flown the AV-8B in RL, I can only go with what the manual states.

[shagrat]

But if you have never flown the AV-8B in RL, I can only go with what the manual states.

 

You meant make it up from what the manual says? The problem is you even struggle to understand the whole concept of AUTO delivery, by making up your own procedure from the manual. If you simply look, how the same mode, concept and principal is implemented in the USMCs other Strike Fighter (F/A-18C) you should easily understand the difference and why it is not correct.

But you are on a crusade for your idea that everything is riggt, just unnecessarily "challenging" to make the pilots life "more entertaining".

I am confident after the MiG-19P release, Razbam will put some love and resources into the delivery modes and along with the CCIP (wrong dashed BombFallLine, missing reflected cue, no transition to AUTO mode) fixes the current place holder symbologies for good.

[Schmidtfire]

I do, I only bomb in Auto mode in the AV-8B. But comparing to any other aircraft does not matter, what matters is how it works in the AV-8B. If your telling me is not like this in the real aircraft when you flew it, cool, that all I need to know, subject is done. But if you have never flown the AV-8B in RL, I can only go with what the manual states.

 

But it does matter to compare. The principles for AUTO bomb steering line is the same. Why would the USMC make such drastic changes to make it more difficult for the pilot?

 

It does not take much effort to figure out that it does not work properly in DCS :)

 

Hope that someone can dig up a IRL HUD video from a CCRP drop, that will settle this once and for all.

[shagrat]

But it does matter to compare. The principles for AUTO bomb steering line is the same. Why would the USMC make such drastic changes to make it more difficult for the pilot?

 

It does not take much effort to figure out that it does not work properly in DCS :)

 

Hope that someone can dig up a IRL HUD video from a CCRP drop, that will settle this once and for all.

Somebody else already did, unfortunately the sequence showed the symbology already aligned and the pilot was not banking during the few seconds shown...

It doesn't matter. Razbam should have SMEs at hand, who will tell them how this works IRL so they just need to get to fixing this. As it is already on the bugtracker and the fixed the first issue, I am now confident, they will fix the rest in due time.

Edited January 21, 2019 by shagrat

[ChickenSim]

After reviewing some HUD tapes I think the plot is a bit thicker than "the ASL must bisect the TD".

 

The McDonnell Douglas/Boeing aircraft share a lot of symbology similarities, but I found two videos showing AUTO drops (

and one in a Harrier GR7).

 

In both situations, the ASL is proportionally further in the opposite direction of the TD as the VV is relative to the ASL. So if your VV is to the right of the ASL, in calm winds the ASL should appear left of the TD.

 

Apparently high crosswinds can also affect the alignment of the ASL and the TD.

 

I'm willing to bet both the Harrier and Hornet ASLs are broken in different ways right now:

 

- Hornet's ASL shouldn't always by aligned perfectly on the TD.

- Harrier's ASL should always be on the side of the VV you need to be turning to align yourself with the target.