lmp 发布于2018年7月29日 发布于2018年7月29日 Why are the colors of the attitude indicator "upside down"? It seems to be a very confusing design feature, especially considering this is a trainer.
IvanK 发布于2018年7月30日 发布于2018年7月30日 Not Confusing for commissars only westerners :) This methodology was pretty standard for most Eastern Block aircraft of the time period both Russian and Chinese. Look at he Mig 15 in DCS same arrangement
Simicro 发布于2018年7月30日 发布于2018年7月30日 Thanks for asking lmp, I was wondering too. I still don't understand. Western rationale: Blue = sky, Brown = ground Russian rationale: ??? - Tony - . My Reviews: Oilfield Campaign - Argo Campaign l My Mission: Huey Ramp Start Voice-Over New! . Microsoft Force Feedback 2 base modded with a CH Fighterstick - VKB Sim T-Rudder Mk.IV Pedals . Intel i5 4670K @4.3 GHz - 32 Gb DDR3 - MSI GTX 1080 - ASUS PG278QR 27" 2K @165 Hz G-Sync
gulredrel 发布于2018年7月30日 发布于2018年7月30日 The colour becomes logical, if you see it moving. Climbing the plane which shows the sky in blue on the artificial horizon. Ground being brown/earth, if you see this, the nose of the plane is pointing downwards.
lmp 发布于2018年7月30日 楼主 发布于2018年7月30日 Not Confusing for commissars only westerners :) This methodology was pretty standard for most Eastern Block aircraft of the time period both Russian and Chinese. Look at he Mig 15 in DCS same arrangement Doesn't seem like this is the case to me. The Yak is a 1970s aircraft, so a contemporary of the Albatros (which would be the next aircraft the student learns), MiG-21 and newer Soviet combat aircraft. The L-39 AI looks like this: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/iblock/5fe/Screen_180712_160404.png White "sky" on top, dark "ground" on the bottom. When you pull the nose over the horizon, the "sky" portion fills the AI. The MiG-21bis, Su-27, Mi-8, MiG-29, Su-25 etc. all have a similar arrangement, despite being from different manufacturers: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/iblock/281/Screen_140720_054805.png_Thumbnail0.jpg https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/iblock/ab1/Screen_141023_104547.jpg_Thumbnail0.jpg https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/iblock/73a/Screen_170824_125901.jpg https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/iblock/2c3/FC3_SCR_41.jpg https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/iblock/e00/FC3_SCR_35.jpg The MiG-15bis is different indeed, but there's no sky/ground background at all, the plane symbol moves against a statick horizon line. In some of the early WIP shots we did indeed see an AI similar/identical to the one in the Yak: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/iblock/79c/Screen_141220_000359.png_Thumbnail0.jpg So clearly this design isn't unique to the Yak, but it isn't exactly standard either. I find it very odd from an ergonomics and even safety point of view. Even the "inverted" roll indication (compared to Western AIs) that we see in most Soviet aircraft has gotten people killed. This is far more difficult to adjust to and easier to misread.
bbrz 发布于2018年7月30日 发布于2018年7月30日 I find it very odd from an ergonomics and even safety point of view. Even the "inverted" roll indication (compared to Western AIs) that we see in most Soviet aircraft has gotten people killed. This is far more difficult to adjust to and easier to misread. One usually get used to it rather quickly and for me it was interestingly IRL less vertigo inducing than the western AHs. All the Zlins I've flown (226, 526, 42) and even the L-13 have this AH. i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070
Simicro 发布于2018年7月30日 发布于2018年7月30日 The colour becomes logical, if you see it moving. Climbing the plane which shows the sky in blue on the artificial horizon. Ground being brown/earth, if you see this, the nose of the plane is pointing downwards. Colors are fine. Blue is sky and black is ground. Check the "climb" and "dive" words in each region. When climbing the miniature airplane will be in blue climb region. What's unusual is that pitching up causes the boundary between the colors to move upward. The boundary represents the nose of the airplane and not the horizon. I agree with you guys, the colours are "right" (brown = earth, blue = sky), and so is the relative position of the miniature "within" earth or ground when diving or climbing. However earth and sky are inverted on the attitude indicator compared to what is observed outside of the cockpit and I don't get the rationale or advantage of that choice. - Tony - . My Reviews: Oilfield Campaign - Argo Campaign l My Mission: Huey Ramp Start Voice-Over New! . Microsoft Force Feedback 2 base modded with a CH Fighterstick - VKB Sim T-Rudder Mk.IV Pedals . Intel i5 4670K @4.3 GHz - 32 Gb DDR3 - MSI GTX 1080 - ASUS PG278QR 27" 2K @165 Hz G-Sync
sobek 发布于2018年7月30日 发布于2018年7月30日 I don't get the rationale or advantage of that choice. It makes the instrument less complex. The way it is built means you do not have to invert the pitch axis movement of the gyro, which is the case for "conventional" artificial horizons. Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives!
lmp 发布于2018年7月30日 楼主 发布于2018年7月30日 One usually get used to it rather quickly and for me it was interestingly IRL less vertigo inducing than the western AHs. All the Zlins I've flown (226, 526, 42) and even the L-13 have this AH. I'm sure you can get used to and even prefer it over the other designs. Contrary to a lot of people I prefer the style used in the L-39 over the Western AIs. What I find strange is Russian cadets being exposed to two different designs throughout their training. Sounds like a recipe for spacial disorientation.
bbrz 发布于2018年7月31日 发布于2018年7月31日 (已编辑) What I find strange is Russian cadets being exposed to two different designs throughout their training. Sounds like a recipe for spacial disorientation. Very good point. Furthermore this design has a significant disadvantage during approaches to very low minimums where you are constantly switching between looking outside and inside. Thinking about it, I've never seen an Eastern Block airliner that has this kind of AI! Even the super old Tu-104 and 124 already had a 'correct' AI. Maybe Sobek is correct that this AI is being used in VFR planes, simply because it's less complex (and hence most likely cheaper and lighter). I was always wondering why a glider has an AI. Last but not least, the old AIs e.g. on the Caravelle, 707 etc, didn't have any colors. The AI had a black background like every other instrument. 本帖最后于2018年7月31日，由bbrz编辑 i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070
fl0w 发布于2018年7月31日 发布于2018年7月31日 It makes the instrument less complex. The way it is built means you do not have to invert the pitch axis movement of the gyro, which is the case for "conventional" artificial horizons. Can you please specify? We all know at least how a gyroscope acts, so there would be no need to explain it. But gyroscopes are always stable, assuming this is in some spherical casing to allow the spinning, so it is acting as a "stuck" piece while you could imagine the plane moves around it. (Obviously not the case, but to imagine it though.) There would no need at all to invert the colors, except confusing the pilot.
Argo Navis 发布于2018年7月31日 发布于2018年7月31日 When the Mig-21F-13 entered service it didn't have a two seater version, so every new Mig-21 squadron had some Mig-15 trainers in order to conduct prof checks, IF training, etc. And that's when this instrument became a problem. The Mig-21F-13s had the AGD-1 attitude indicator with the blue on top while the Mig-15UTI still had the old AGI-1 blue on bottom indicators. After some time these two seater Mig-15s got the new AGD-1 indicators to eliminate the confusion. I don't think many Mig-15UTIs got this instrument since the 2 seater Mig-21U also entered service a few years after the F-13 started and there was no need to have Mig-15s in the Mig-21 squadrons anymore.
lmp 发布于2018年7月31日 楼主 发布于2018年7月31日 Thanks for all your input, guys! @Sirius Imagine this. If the sphere of the AI is stabilized to the ground and you enter a climb - so you're looking up - which half of the sphere you will see more of? The bottom part. And that's exactly what's happening in the Yak-52's AI. In a Western AI you want to see the top side of the sphere in a climb, so if you pull up 45 degrees the sphere needs to rotate 90 degrees relative to the real horizon.
dali 发布于2018年7月31日 发布于2018年7月31日 contrary to popular presumption, russian and eastern designers in general, did quite extensive studies in area of instrument and cockpit design. They did excelent job within the parameters of what was main purpuse of the aircraft. The layout was very good, the quality unfortunately much less that.
fl0w 发布于2018年7月31日 发布于2018年7月31日 (已编辑) If the sphere of the AI is stabilized to the ground and you enter a climb - so you're looking up - which half of the sphere you will see more of? The bottom part. And that's exactly what's happening in the Yak-52's AI. In a Western AI you want to see the top side of the sphere in a climb, so if you pull up 45 degrees the sphere needs to rotate 90 degrees relative to the real horizon. Oh, I got it then! Why do they have a problem with inverting the axis then? Having an ADI that is more logically appealing is better than by wanting a simplistic design. And following with the statement earlier, putting pilots in two completely different aircraft with different types of this ADI makes absolutely no sense. 本帖最后于2018年7月31日，由Sirius编辑
MikeMikeJuliet 发布于2018年7月31日 发布于2018年7月31日 Oh, I got it then! Why do they have a problem with inverting the axis then? Having an ADI that is more logically appealing is better than by wanting a simplistic design. And following with the statement earlier, putting pilots in two completely different aircraft with different types of this ADI makes absolutely no sense. Less moving parts = cheaper to produce and easier to maintain. DCS Finland | SF squadron
fl0w 发布于2018年7月31日 发布于2018年7月31日 Cheaper to produce yes, but by maintaining I hope you mean physically and not mentally. ;)
IvanK 发布于2018年8月1日 发布于2018年8月1日 Cheaper to produce yes, but by maintaining I hope you mean physically and not mentally. ;) Da! thats why you must "think in Russian" ... privet
IvanK 发布于2018年8月1日 发布于2018年8月1日 (已编辑) Cheaper to produce yes, but by maintaining I hope you mean physically and not mentally. ;) Da! thats why you must "think in Russian" ... privet Che Che 本帖最后于2018年8月1日，由IvanK编辑
Toriy 发布于2018年8月2日 发布于2018年8月2日 This AI was called in some books as a "fighter type" AI. Imagine, that the "bird" on the AI is a plane flying in front of you. If you start your climb, the plane goes down. And the blue and brown colours are just to tell you is your plane climbing or descending. The idea was to synchronize the picture on the AI and on the gunsight when you follow a plane.
Victory205 发布于2018年8月3日 发布于2018年8月3日 I think the design was influenced heavily by the presence of huge quantities of quality Vodka. Fly Pretty, anyone can Fly Safe.
lobo 发布于2018年8月4日 发布于2018年8月4日 I would not want to fly the Yak (with it's unique attitude indicator) IFR... I'd probably be inverted in short order. lol Lobo's DCS A-10C Normal Checklist & Quick Reference Handbook current version 8D available here: http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/172905/
fogster 发布于2018年8月9日 发布于2018年8月9日 How do you guys uncage it? I can't seem to get it to work, it always shows straight and level.
do_ob 发布于2018年8月9日 发布于2018年8月9日 Why? Why? Why? Why? SIMPLE! For extra $120 you can have an AI of your choice and a built in NS430. Same as IRL, coast dictates conditions.
已推荐帖子