INS Alignment procedure (draft)

[QuiGon]

It's even worse than I expected: Unlike with the M2000, there won't be any option for server admins to enforece INS alignment for the Harrier:

https://www.facebook.com/RazbamSims/posts/1816738995079397?comment_id=1816744305078866&reply_comment_id=1816784218408208

 

This means there is no way to prevent people on realism servers from using this cheat. They are free to use it to gain an advantage in competitive MP missions. This is really bad news :mad:

[dimitrischal]

That’s the same with the mirage isn’t it? The options define the client setting and the MP setting is defined in individual aircraft as they are placed.

[QuiGon]

That’s the same with the mirage isn’t it? The options define the client setting and the MP setting is defined in individual aircraft as they are placed.

No, it is not:

No. It won't be enforceable via ME. INS default alignment status is a personal choice.

[dimitrischal]

LOOL INS alignment in MP is definetely NOT personal choice. Goes a long way in showing what developers' goals are and realism is not RAZBAMs.

[QuiGon]

I started a dedicated thread about this problem: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3590323

[Knock-Knock]

It's even worse than I expected: Unlike with the M2000, there won't be any option for server admins to enforece INS alignment for the Harrier:

https://www.facebook.com/RazbamSims/posts/1816738995079397?comment_id=1816744305078866&reply_comment_id=1816784218408208

 

This means there is no way to prevent people on realism servers from using this cheat. They are free to use it to gain an advantage in competitive MP missions. This is really bad news :mad:

 

F-4E and I-16 in that pic :music_whistling:

[shagrat]

It's even worse than I expected: Unlike with the M2000, there won't be any option for server admins to enforece INS alignment for the Harrier:

https://www.facebook.com/RazbamSims/posts/1816738995079397?comment_id=1816744305078866&reply_comment_id=1816784218408208

 

This means there is no way to prevent people on realism servers from using this cheat. They are free to use it to gain an advantage in competitive MP missions. This is really bad news :mad:

That is the Options tab not the Mission Editor.

[QuiGon]

That is the Options tab not the Mission Editor.

I'm not talking about the Options Tab as seen on the FB screenshot. I'm talking about RAZBAMs response in the comments below the screenshot:

No. It won't be enforceable via ME. INS default alignment status is a personal choice.

That is a step backwards from the Mirage, because server admins won't have any way to enforce INS alignment for Harrier players... :mad:

[shagrat]

I'm not talking about the Options Tab as seen on the FB screenshot. I'm talking about RAZBAMs response in the comments below the screenshot:

 

That is a step backwards from the Mirage, because server admins won't have any way to enforce INS alignment for Harrier players... :mad:

Hm, I don't see any comments, maybe you need a Facebook Account to see them...

You sure they will change the setting again, and different to the Mirage?

Currently the setting is available on the Tab in the ME.

Sounds odd, to fumble with an existing and working option.

[QuiGon]

Hm, I don't see any comments, maybe you need a Facebook Account to see them...

You sure they will change the setting again, and different to the Mirage?

Currently the setting is available on the Tab in the ME.

Sounds odd, to fumble with an existing and working option.

I quoted what they said above. If you still don't believe, then take a look at the attached screenshot...

And yes, it is odd!

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Isn't IFA should be used only to update INS, then set back to NAV for INS navigation. Technically with EMCON ON, IFA and TACAN T/R should not be functional. Leaving nav system in IFA makes A/C continuously communicate with GPS constellation, which is tactically imprudent.

[backspace340]

Isn't IFA should be used only to update INS, then set back to NAV for INS navigation. Technically with EMCON ON, IFA and TACAN T/R should not be functional. Leaving nav system in IFA makes A/C continuously communicate with GPS constellation, which is tactically imprudent.

 

GPS is passive - it just needs to listen out for the time/location transmissions of the satellites, it doesn't communicate back.

[shagrat]

Isn't IFA should be used only to update INS, then set back to NAV for INS navigation. Technically with EMCON ON, IFA and TACAN T/R should not be functional. Leaving nav system in IFA makes A/C continuously communicate with GPS constellation, which is tactically imprudent.

You know how GPS works? Satellites sending continuous reference the GPS picks up GPS satellites and correlates the position through computation of the GPS data sent(!) by the satellites.

GPS does not send any active signal to a satellite... Your smartphone does send the calculated GPS position through the internet or network connection, though.

 

TACAN is only emitting if you need distance calculated. In EMCON it should only receive direction from the station.

 

IFA instead of NAV is used to update position through GPS continuously, as far as I have read from comments it is the standard after initial alignment, when on a carrier deck.

[mahuja]

One reason you would not want to stick it on IFA and leave it there, is that this opens you up for some EW techniques (gps spoofing) that could for example introduce drift in your nav system. Thsi level of electronic warfare is not simulated in DCS, unsurprisingly.

 

 

What will happen if I simply set it to IFA, perhaps even before it has power if that doesn't lead to anything worse, and leave it there for the duration of a mission?

What if I then take off before it completes the alignment?

 

My guess would be that, at worst, it could be somewhat inaccurate in the first few minutes.

And if that is the worst of it, the whole INS align option discussion is moot.

[ChickenSim]

GPS vulnerability to jamming and spoofing is typically mitigated with SAASM (Selective Availability Anti-Spoofing Module) which is (very basically) military encrypted GPS.

 

IFA allows the GPS to continuously provide error corrections to the INS throughout flight by placing the INS and GPS into a "tightly coupled" mode, although it is procedure in the event of an inoperable, faulty, or detected jammed/spoofed GPS (it's not that hard to figure out sitting in the cockpit) to place the switch back to NAV so as not to inadvertently fail the INS with erroneous GPS error corrections. This procedure is covered in detail in the emergency procedures section of the NATOPS.

[shagrat]

One reason you would not want to stick it on IFA and leave it there, is that this opens you up for some EW techniques (gps spoofing) that could for example introduce drift in your nav system. Thsi level of electronic warfare is not simulated in DCS, unsurprisingly.

 

 

What will happen if I simply set it to IFA, perhaps even before it has power if that doesn't lead to anything worse, and leave it there for the duration of a mission?

What if I then take off before it completes the alignment?

 

My guess would be that, at worst, it could be somewhat inaccurate in the first few minutes.

And if that is the worst of it, the whole INS align option discussion is moot.

You should always align the INS and get a valid GPS position. After that you either set it to NAV if you are on an airport as the only thing supposed to move there is the plane.

 

If on a carrier (a ship-like platform steaming through the sea, rolling and moving) there was the comment of a pilot that they switch it to IFA so the INS is updated with the GPS. Which does make sense for me, as the movement of the ship could degrade INS again. I can't say if they switch to NAV after Take Off,

[ChickenSim]

You should always align the INS and get a valid GPS position. After that you either set it to NAV if you are on an airport as the only thing supposed to move there is the plane.

 

If on a carrier (a ship-like platform steaming through the sea, rolling and moving) there was the comment of a pilot that they switch it to IFA so the INS is updated with the GPS. Which does make sense for me, as the movement of the ship could degrade INS again. I can't say if they switch to NAV after Take Off,

 

It is left in IFA for the duration of flight (ship or shore) unless issues with the GPS present themselves.

[shagrat]

It is left in IFA for the duration of flight (ship or shore) unless issues with the GPS present themselves.

 

Great, thanks for the clarification. :thumbup:

[Jazz_44]

Coming to the open beta tomorrow?

[Zarma]

Nope

[capt_bob007]

Harrier issue resolved.

 

Firstly to all who answered my request for help with the problem I had with no heading bug..altitude ladder..I apologise for the long delay in thanking you all for all your help and support.

I would like to inform you all I have managed to resolve the issue,by going to controls/advanced controls..and ticking the mini map box..this solved the issue immediately ..

so many many thanks for your help:thumbup::thumbup:

[Deano87]

Firstly to all who answered my request for help with the problem I had with no heading bug..altitude ladder..I apologise for the long delay in thanking you all for all your help and support.

I would like to inform you all I have managed to resolve the issue,by going to controls/advanced controls..and ticking the mini map box..this solved the issue immediately ..

so many many thanks for your help:thumbup::thumbup:

 

Glad you got it sorted out capt_bob!

[Hobel]

On 8/3/2018 at 5:00 PM, dimitrischal said:

Nobody argues about the option, but the fact that it is on by default in the settings. Right now in every dcs server (except maybe blue flag) you can do 1 minute preflight and takeoffs in the mirage whereas that is impossible irl

Aren't there some planes on standby or whatever you want to call it so  that is exactly what can happen.
If a passenger plane is hijacked and the pilots have to get in the air, I guarantee you they are not going to wait for the INS. And this is not the only scenario where speed counts.

and this is how I would look at this feature when it is available.

[dimitrischal]

On 4/15/2022 at 3:44 AM, Hobel said:

Aren't there some planes on standby or whatever you want to call it so  that is exactly what can happen.
If a passenger plane is hijacked and the pilots have to get in the air, I guarantee you they are not going to wait for the INS. And this is not the only scenario where speed counts.

and this is how I would look at this feature when it is available.

This is a really gamey way of thinking. You can't have planes aligned and waiting, what you can do is fast align. And yes you wait for the ins to align either fast or full because modern planes require a working ins to use almost everything on the plane. Obviously

[Hobel]

2 minutes ago, dimitrischal said:

This is a really gamey way of thinking. You can't have planes aligned and waiting, what you can do is fast align. And yes you wait for the ins to align either fast or full because modern planes require a working ins to use almost everything on the plane. Obviously

that's why i talk about Standbye.
  And these are things that are handled like this in real life.