How to tell distance from carrier abeam on downwind/reciprocal/180?

[Gnat]

As the question states, how do I know that I am the correct offset from the carrier (e.g., 1.2nm) on the downwind?

[gabuzomeu]

TACAN gives you the distqnce (DME) on the hud

[PunchOut]

also, Abeam distance was added on the HSI

[ttaylor0024]

also, it's a visual traffic pattern, you can estimate visually.

 

Seems that way but in reality it's an instrument pattern with visual lookout until you're in the groove, then you take over visually. Need to be on precise numbers, and .1DME or 50' high/low makes a noticeable difference when flying. When in the approach turn you're told to not even look outside till the 90, and even then it's just a glance to see how you're doing turn wise (am I going to undershoot/overshoot/i'm good).

[oldcrusty]

Seems that way but in reality it's an instrument pattern with visual lookout until you're in the groove, then you take over visually. Need to be on precise numbers, and .1DME or 50' high/low makes a noticeable difference when flying. When in the approach turn you're told to not even look outside till the 90, and even then it's just a glance to see how you're doing turn wise (am I going to undershoot/overshoot/i'm good).

 

Once I'm on-speed, landing checks done (very quickly!), I do take a peek (also quickly:D) at the ship to get my 180... works best for me.

[Gnat]

also, Abeam distance was added on the HSI

 

 

 

TACAN gives you the distqnce (DME) on the hud

 

 

I see the distance to the carrier on the HSI once I have TACAN, but this is the direct as-the-crow-flies (slant) distance, and not the abeam distance (which the is the distance between aircraft and carrier on just azimuth (3-9) axis? Could someone post a screen shot?

 

also, it's a visual traffic pattern, you can estimate visually.

 

 

AFAIK, there are only a few points in the pattern where you do a visual check of the carrier; by then it is too late to adjust/correct the offset distance.

[raelias]

I see the distance to the carrier on the HSI once I have TACAN, but this is the direct as-the-crow-flies (slant) distance, and not the abeam distance (which the is the distance between aircraft and carrier on just azimuth (3-9) axis? Could someone post a screen shot?

 

 

 

 

AFAIK, there are only a few points in the pattern where you do a visual check of the carrier; by then it is too late to adjust/correct the offset distance.

 

 

just watch the needle as it crosses your 3-9 line thats your abeam distance, alternativelly, just look left

[Victory205]

The "Gouge" based on the ship's TACAN, is while on the downwind heading, when your cockpit TACAN needle is at the 45 degrees left mark, you should see around 1.7-1.8 DME if you want to end up 1.2 miles abeam.

 

If you are off, take a quick cut, because there isn't much time to correct from that position.

 

After a few months, you can just look and know where you are.

 

This is about all you have, because the break takes place at wildly different places, depending upon traffic interval, what position you are flying in the flight, etc.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Victory205

[TonyG]

I put a cruiser in the abeam position, 1.2 nM from the deck. Picked this up from the Stingers LSO mission. Works great for tuning your eye, when it's not there you still have a good sense.

 

And using the course line deviation works well too.

[Doum76]

TACAN gives you the distqnce (DME) on the hud

 

 

 

 

You want to look at the Cross Track Error (the distance above the CSEL on the HSI bottom right corner) more than tacan as for downind distance, as Tacan included all distance the CTR gives you a perpendicular offsent, that is what i use. It makes it easier for me than going on with all the RL geometry calculation, i'm bad at math so that distance makes for me, my own personal trick.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Doum76

[Doum76]

You need to utilize some basic geometry.

 

If you want an abeam distance of 1.2 nm you want a TACAN range of 1.6 (1.56 rounded up to tenths) nm after completing your break turn stating at 1 nm.

 

Pythagorean theorem. One leg of the triangle is 1.2, the other is 1. a^2 + b^2 = c^2

 

c = sqrt(1 = 1.2^2).

 

I you have 1.6 after the break turn you should be at 1.2 at the abeam position. If it's higher than 1.6 you will be greater than 1.2 and your turn was too shallow.

 

If it's less than 1.2 then your break turn was too tight and you'll be inside the whole way.

 

Take winds into account. If the wind is blowing on the ship from the port, you'll be inside if you don'[t adjust and vice versa.

 

 

Damn you just made my brains overheating with this, it keeps telling me « Cannot Compute » :)

 

 

 

You seem the one to answer one of my questionning i had for a while.

 

 

 

To get that 1.6 nm working if you break at 1.0, what is the proper starboard side offset distance from the carrier when you break. It's one of the only info i have never been able to get, i personaly do about 0.2 nm offset which alows me to see the deck activity when i cross the ship, but i'm curious as the real procedure, since you seem an experience pilot you might have my answer i tried to get for a while. Though i might never use your formula because i'm too dumb for maths which is wy i always gett either 1.1, 1.2 or sometimes 1.3 nm downwind, but still not that bad for an arm-chair pilot. :)

[ttaylor0024]

Pilots here explained you are responsible for traffic interval in pattern. You can't do that without looking outside.

 

It's easy to estimate downwind position to .1nm and hold 600±10ft, really that's ppl precision. You cannot see your 180 point if you don't look outside.

 

That's why I said instrument pattern with visual lookout... You break in relation to your interval to set up proper spacing. Instrument pattern also means it's flown that way, not that you're buried heads down.

 

It's not even about difficulty of flying +-0, it's about flying a good approach to show up to a good start. If you're having to correct for a high or low off the start the pass isn't going to go well, and if you've undershot or overshot you've created even more problems because the ball isn't giving you the correct glideslope information.

 

Don't need to be splitting hairs here

 

You need to utilize some basic geometry.

 

If you want an abeam distance of 1.2 nm you want a TACAN range of 1.6 (1.56 rounded up to tenths) nm after completing your break turn stating at 1 nm.

 

Pythagorean theorem. One leg of the triangle is 1.2, the other is 1. a^2 + b^2 = c^2

 

c = sqrt(1 = 1.2^2).

 

I you have 1.6 after the break turn you should be at 1.2 at the abeam position. If it's higher than 1.6 you will be greater than 1.2 and your turn was too shallow.

 

If it's less than 1.2 then your break turn was too tight and you'll be inside the whole way.

 

Take winds into account. If the wind is blowing on the ship from the port, you'll be inside if you don'[t adjust and vice versa.

Damn you just made my brains overheating with this, it keeps telling me « Cannot Compute » :)

 

 

 

You seem the one to answer one of my questionning i had for a while.

 

 

 

To get that 1.6 nm working if you break at 1.0, what is the proper starboard side offset distance from the carrier when you break. It's one of the only info i have never been able to get, i personaly do about 0.2 nm offset which alows me to see the deck activity when i cross the ship, but i'm curious as the real procedure, since you seem an experience pilot you might have my answer i tried to get for a while. Though i might never use your formula because i'm too dumb for maths which is wy i always gett either 1.1, 1.2 or sometimes 1.3 nm downwind, but still not that bad for an arm-chair pilot. :)

 

 

Just look for the 1.8ish with the bearing pointer at 45* left of nose. Another trick is to be in 10nm scale on the hsi and put the wingtip on the BRC course line

Edited August 5, 2018 by ttaylor0024

[Doum76]

 

 

 

 

Just look for the 1.8ish with the bearing pointer at 45* left of nose. Another trick is to be in 10nm scale on the hsi and put the wingtip on the BRC course line

 

 

 

Thanks for the reply, though i have no problems for the downwind part of getting at 1.1 or 1.2, not perfect but it does the job as virtual flyer, i was just wondering as the offset distance from the carrier for the break, it's just a curiosity as the real thing, in other word, the upwind distance before the break, not the downwind distance. As some people passes straight over the carrier, i prefer to offset a bit to have a visual on deck activity to see if there is aircrafts on pattern, final or even launching or launched (on public servers you gotta have eyes for others :)). But dunno the real spot to be as starboard offset prior to the break.

[BSS_Sniper]

You need to utilize some basic geometry.

 

If you want an abeam distance of 1.2 nm you want a TACAN range of 1.6 (1.56 rounded up to tenths) nm after completing your break turn stating at 1 nm.

 

Pythagorean theorem. One leg of the triangle is 1.2, the other is 1. a^2 + b^2 = c^2

 

c = sqrt(1 = 1.2^2).

 

I you have 1.6 after the break turn you should be at 1.2 at the abeam position. If it's higher than 1.6 you will be greater than 1.2 and your turn was too shallow.

 

If it's less than 1.2 then your break turn was too tight and you'll be inside the whole way.

 

Take winds into account. If the wind is blowing on the ship from the port, you'll be inside if you don'[t adjust and vice versa.

 

 

WTF? lol Seriously, use your eyeballs and some piloting skills. You shouldn't have to break out a calculator. That's all nice to do on paper if you feel the need, until you're number 2, 3 or 4 in a flight. Either way, totally not needed.

[Habu_69]

Yeah, use some of that pilot sh!t.

[Greyhound11]

WTF? lol Seriously, use your eyeballs and some piloting skills. You shouldn't have to break out a calculator. That's all nice to do on paper if you feel the need, until you're number 2, 3 or 4 in a flight. Either way, totally not needed.

what hes saying, and you dont have to do the math in flight, but 1.2 tacan DME does not equal 1.2nm abeam distance, so fly it at 1.6 tacan dme in ideal conditions (no crosswind). the math was just to show WHY your tacan should read 1.6 instead of 1.2 when you are 1.2nm abeam the boat.

 

I dont think a lot people take into account that tacan range is slant range, and always fly case 1 in the sim at a 1.2m abeam TACAN DME, not 1.2nm abeam distance, and are always overshooting.

 

Weight plays into it as well, but I don't have the figures to make those calcs.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Greyhound11

[Greyhound11]

Damn you just made my brains overheating with this, it keeps telling me « Cannot Compute » :)

 

 

 

You seem the one to answer one of my questionning i had for a while.

 

 

 

To get that 1.6 nm working if you break at 1.0, what is the proper starboard side offset distance from the carrier when you break. It's one of the only info i have never been able to get, i personaly do about 0.2 nm offset which alows me to see the deck activity when i cross the ship, but i'm curious as the real procedure, since you seem an experience pilot you might have my answer i tried to get for a while. Though i might never use your formula because i'm too dumb for maths which is wy i always gett either 1.1, 1.2 or sometimes 1.3 nm downwind, but still not that bad for an arm-chair pilot. :)

 

wondering this too, but i dont think they regulate it. getting to the 1.2nm actual is managed during the second half of the break turn it seems (got that from Jello)

[Victory205]

what hes saying, and you dont have to do the math in flight, but 1.2 tacan DME does not equal 1.2nm abeam distance, so fly it at 1.6 tacan dme in ideal conditions (no crosswind). the math was just to show WHY your tacan should read 1.6 instead of 1.2 when you are 1.2nm abeam the boat.

 

I dont think a lot people take into account that tacan range is slant range, and always fly case 1 in the sim at a 1.2m abeam TACAN DME, not 1.2nm abeam distance, and are always overshooting.

 

Weight plays into it as well, but I don't have the figures to make those calcs.

 

Slant range at 600 feet MSL? less than one tenth of the length of the hypotenuse?

 

Hell, the ship's TACAN transmitter is probably 200 MSL so the vertical component of this amazing mathematical derived aeronautical triangle feet is 400 feet!

Edited August 7, 2018 by Victory205

[Greyhound11]

Slant range at 600 feet MSL? less than one tenth of the length of the hypotenuse?

 

Hell, the ship's TACAN transmitter is probably 200 MSL so the vertical component of this amazing mathematical derived aeronautical triangle feet is 400 feet!

 

Dang, you're right. Sounded good though! So 1.2 on the tacan is reliable then?

[Greyhound11]

Just seems like no matter what I do, from 1.2nm TACAN DME on the dot abeam, 600'AGL, sliding into a 30 AOB turn results in an inside turn every time.

[Victory205]

Dang, you're right. Sounded good though! So 1.2 on the tacan is reliable then?

 

Yes.

 

If heavy, be at 1.2 DME, if light, 1.1-1.0 as your approach speed will be slower with a correspondingly smaller turn radius.

 

Turn abeam the LSO platform, don’t wait to see the stern. The goal however, is to roll out with a centered ball and a proper groove length, so whatever works.

[erautour]

Dang, you're right. Sounded good though! So 1.2 on the tacan is reliable then?

 

Yes.

 

The 1.6 referenced in the other post was DME you should see when completing your break IF you broke at 1.0nm past the ship. From hat 1.6 flying 180 of BRC will put you 1.2nm abeam.

 

 

For your turning short issue... when you get to the 90 add a quick glance at the boat to check lineup to your scan. Adjust your AOB as necessary to roll out in the groove

[Greyhound11]

Now that I have implemented some decision-making points at 90 and 90 (playing with last 90 degrees of the break turn to arrive abeam, and playing with the last 100 degrees of the approach turn to arrive in the groove) and not being so rigid about it, it has helped to create a lot of decent passes and repeatable results.

 

What would be cool (not sure if we can in DCS) is to create some tacview "AOR" type zones like we could in BMS in the shape of a standard case one pattern so you can grade how you did in tacview.

 

Would also be awesome if we could get in-close info with an accurate cvn model in tacview as well.