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On 4/27/2022 at 10:21 PM, 98abaile said:

Dunno, the game is CPU limited. Some of you people have money burning a hole in your pockets.

We're just PC enthusiasts who want the most immersive flight simulation experience possible.  I personally got my 3090 for MSRP. I wouldn't have paid retail for it. I managed to beat the scalper's bots. If you're a VR user like myself, getting a 3090 is worth it for the eye candy. The 24GB of RAM also eliminates VRAM bottlenecking.

Efficient & minimal mission creation seems to be what is handling the CPU limitation ATM. My only concern is ED will keep delaying the implementation of Vulkan & instead keep creating more content & features as a means of diverting people's attention from the elephant in the room. 

Finance is obviously an issue as ED have to pay their bills & wages & Vulkan isn't paid DLC which in my mind keeps it at the bottom of their priority list. ED's priority is to create content & modules to keep the money rolling in, which is understandable as they have to 'keep the lights on'.

I'm just concerned Vulkan will keep being pushed back. I know little to nothing about coding. But from what I gather going from one API to another is an enormous undertaking which requires many thousands of manhours of work.

Vulkan is now 6 years old & we've been discussing Vulkan's implementation into DCS for over 4 years so it's understandable that some people like myself who have spend a lot of money on gaming rigs are now beginning to become impatient. 

With Sims like Star Citizen Chris Roberts knows he has to release an abundance of news with Star Citizen's development because it keeps its player base happy with at least knowing what's going on behind the scenes.  Sure, things are pushed back, but at least people are kept informed.  With ED all we get is a newsletter & a newsletter that hasn't even mentioned Vulkan for a while now.

An ETA with some development news would be nice & reassuring instead of a blanket of what seems to be secrecy with a: "don't worry it's coming" to boot. I love DCS in all its splendor, but there's only so much one can take when shelling out money on components in anticipation for what seems to be an imminent implementation of the new API that will unlock people's hardware's potential.

I now find myself digging deeper into keeping myself entertained when playing DCS. Meaning I'm constantly flying my favourite module & taking on harder missions to keep myself distracted from the frustration of not knowing when. 

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10 hours ago, Infiltrator said:

We're just PC enthusiasts who want the most immersive flight simulation experience possible.  I personally got my 3090 for MSRP. I wouldn't have paid retail for it. I managed to beat the scalper's bots. If you're a VR user like myself, getting a 3090 is worth it for the eye candy. The 24GB of RAM also eliminates VRAM bottlenecking.

Efficient & minimal mission creation seems to be what is handling the CPU limitation ATM. My only concern is ED will keep delaying the implementation of Vulkan & instead keep creating more content & features as a means of diverting people's attention from the elephant in the room. 

Finance is obviously an issue as ED have to pay their bills & wages & Vulkan isn't paid DLC which in my mind keeps it at the bottom of their priority list. ED's priority is to create content & modules to keep the money rolling in, which is understandable as they have to 'keep the lights on'.

I'm just concerned Vulkan will keep being pushed back. I know little to nothing about coding. But from what I gather going from one API to another is an enormous undertaking which requires many thousands of manhours of work.

Vulkan is now 6 years old & we've been discussing Vulkan's implementation into DCS for over 4 years so it's understandable that some people like myself who have spend a lot of money on gaming rigs are now beginning to become impatient. 

With Sims like Star Citizen Chris Roberts knows he has to release an abundance of news with Star Citizen's development because it keeps its player base happy with at least knowing what's going on behind the scenes.  Sure, things are pushed back, but at least people are kept informed.  With ED all we get is a newsletter & a newsletter that hasn't even mentioned Vulkan for a while now.

An ETA with some development news would be nice & reassuring instead of a blanket of what seems to be secrecy with a: "don't worry it's coming" to boot. I love DCS in all its splendor, but there's only so much one can take when shelling out money on components in anticipation for what seems to be an imminent implementation of the new API that will unlock people's hardware's potential.

I now find myself digging deeper into keeping myself entertained when playing DCS. Meaning I'm constantly flying my favourite module & taking on harder missions to keep myself distracted from the frustration of not knowing when. 

Just to clarify, ED isnt "Delaying the integration of Vulkan" there's a separate team that's assigned to do Vulkan, the teams working on projects (F/A-18C/F-16C/AH-64D etc etc) are different teams.

As stated numerous times, writing a new engine from zero is a vast task, then comes the process of converting assets to the new engine.

It's not a "Low Priority", while Vulkan and the Multi-Thread recoding of the core are not "Paid DLC", having those 2 items integrated will resolve many long standing issues with the simulation for everyone, thus pleasing the current customers as well as the future customers that were waiting to fully experience what DCS World has to offer because of the limits of the engine's performance, pretty confident if the FPS and Performance issues are resolved, more revenue will be generated from current users as well as new users.

Transitioning to a new API is a huge task for most studios that use licensed engine, and it's an even bigger task for ED as they build their own engine.

Moving from DX11 to Vulkan isnt just write a new engine, compile, test, release.

There's Multiple phases (from experience w/ other studios it's usually about the same with some minor differences),
-Planning Features/Support
   knowing what features they want implemented, support for other devices and api's, ie VR, Tobi, TrackIR, OpenXR, etc etc
   ie, ED May have Mentioned Vulkan Development has started in 2018, but actual coding phase likely wouldn't have started for weeks/months after that.

-Upgrading Development Workflow to use the new API's Development tools
   ie upgrading the computers to include all software/plugins etc to use with developing for Vulkan.


-Supporting Applications Integration
   For ED, it would be things like ModelViewer would need to be re-done to use the new renderer engine etc, as well as tools used to create effects/shaders etc.


-Initial Core Compile
   Building the initial Engine, with just the ability to render, testing the engine with the Graphics Container formats etc etc

-Adding Features/API Support
   Expanding the Engine to include other APIs (Oculus, OpenXR, SteamVR, TrackIR, etc etc etc)
   This is usually a pretty long phase, as adding features/API's may conflict with previous integrated items and previous integrations will have to be re-coded etc.

-Converting Assets
   Assets usually need converting as most engines require specific container formats or properties set a specific way, mainly adjust the Exporters to export properly for the new engine, and convert all the assets (textures, models, shaders, effects etc to work within the new engine).

-Internal Deployment
   Adding/Interfacing the new engine to the main core, Coding the Core of the Sim to recognize the new engine.

-Internal Testing
  Often one of the longest phases, catching all the bugs, exceptions, oddities that comes with converting assets from one engine to another.

-External Testing 
   When Beta testers usually start testing on wider hardware profile ranges.

-Initial Deployment
    When it's deployed to public builds.


I've worked with other Game Developers when they moved from DX9 to DX12 or from DX9 to Vulkan, and we did internal testing for over 2 years before deploying to Beta Testers for another year before launching it to everyone, and that was utilizing a prebuilt licensed rendering engine.

Just to Note a few things,
-DCS / EDGE DX11 Engine was around 5 years from first mentioning that a new Renderer was needed to initial public release.
-While the CV19 didn't stop development, it likely slowed some things down. not just on ED's end, but likely on Kronos' end as well if ED's team sent support req./tickets to Kronos during initial programming and such.).


Edited by SkateZilla
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@SkateZilla
Very well written like always.
I want it tomorrow like any other here, just to see if it makes my computer live for a little while longer.
But I can actually wait, because I want them to do it right. And I assume they really want to make it right, and lay a foundation that could be expanded upon in the future. Who knows, maybe in some years we can all utilise 36+ cores.
I have some blade servers I would love to test for a private MP server. Bugger the bill!

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Magnificent "sum up", to say something about that -not that long- post, right? I thought I could barely imagine what was such an overwhelming task, but didn't even got close to that draft you posted 🤣 .

Thanks Skatezilla, that's really enlightening about what is going on under the hood, which is great to remember to some other forum members a bit overenthusiastic about deliver schedules any time anything is said to be Work In Progress here. We all want it all for tomorrow, or even yesterday, but things need their time specially when you aren't a big bucks software company. Thanks for the heads up :thumbup: .

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Vulkan, Multi-Thread, and Dynamic Campaign are the Big 3.

The community will not rest until they are released.

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14 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

Just to clarify, ED isnt "Delaying the integration of Vulkan" there's a separate team that's assigned to do Vulkan, the teams working on projects (F/A-18C/F-16C/AH-64D etc etc) are different teams.

As stated numerous times, writing a new engine from zero is a vast task, then comes the process of converting assets to the new engine.

It's not a "Low Priority", while Vulkan and the Multi-Thread recoding of the core are not "Paid DLC", having those 2 items integrated will resolve many long standing issues with the simulation for everyone, thus pleasing the current customers as well as the future customers that were waiting to fully experience what DCS World has to offer because of the limits of the engine's performance, pretty confident if the FPS and Performance issues are resolved, more revenue will be generated from current users as well as new users.

Transitioning to a new API is a huge task for most studios that use licensed engine, and it's an even bigger task for ED as they build their own engine.

Moving from DX11 to Vulkan isnt just write a new engine, compile, test, release.

There's Multiple phases (from experience w/ other studios it's usually about the same with some minor differences),
-Planning Features/Support
   knowing what features they want implemented, support for other devices and api's, ie VR, Tobi, TrackIR, OpenXR, etc etc
   ie, ED May have Mentioned Vulkan Development has started in 2018, but actual coding phase likely wouldn't have started for weeks/months after that.

-Upgrading Development Workflow to use the new API's Development tools
   ie upgrading the computers to include all software/plugins etc to use with developing for Vulkan.


-Supporting Applications Integration
   For ED, it would be things like ModelViewer would need to be re-done to use the new renderer engine etc, as well as tools used to create effects/shaders etc.


-Initial Core Compile
   Building the initial Engine, with just the ability to render, testing the engine with the Graphics Container formats etc etc

-Adding Features/API Support
   Expanding the Engine to include other APIs (Oculus, OpenXR, SteamVR, TrackIR, etc etc etc)
   This is usually a pretty long phase, as adding features/API's may conflict with previous integrated items and previous integrations will have to be re-coded etc.

-Converting Assets
   Assets usually need converting as most engines require specific container formats or properties set a specific way, mainly adjust the Exporters to export properly for the new engine, and convert all the assets (textures, models, shaders, effects etc to work within the new engine).

-Internal Deployment
   Adding/Interfacing the new engine to the main core, Coding the Core of the Sim to recognize the new engine.

-Internal Testing
  Often one of the longest phases, catching all the bugs, exceptions, oddities that comes with converting assets from one engine to another.

-External Testing 
   When Beta testers usually start testing on wider hardware profile ranges.

-Initial Deployment
    When it's deployed to public builds.


I've worked with other Game Developers when they moved from DX9 to DX12 or from DX9 to Vulkan, and we did internal testing for over 2 years before deploying to Beta Testers for another year before launching it to everyone, and that was utilizing a prebuilt licensed rendering engine.

Just to Note a few things,
-DCS / EDGE DX11 Engine was around 5 years from first mentioning that a new Renderer was needed to initial public release.
-While the CV19 didn't stop development, it likely slowed some things down. not just on ED's end, but likely on Kronos' end as well if ED's team sent support req./tickets to Kronos during initial programming and such.).

 

SkateZilla, thanks for the very detailed explanation.

In my dreams such a detailed list is converted to some GANTT chart by ED and making some kind of progress % on each items. If that comes alive we'll wait for years while watching the progress to grow. The people here losing patience because of the lack of progress indication. But I already wrote this 100 times.

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As SilverDragon wrote in the Roadmap topic: "No Vulkan near term release yet.". 🙂

What is "near term" for ED if we are talking about complete graphic engine rewrite? A month / quarter / half a year / year / decade?

 

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My post some months ago regarding how CIG are working towards Vulkan and Gen12 rendering was deleted.

If you search for "Star Citizen ISC Vulkan" or similar, the Star Citizen devs explain the whole process of dragging a (still developing) code into Vulkan etc.

It's  rather brilliant and way above my pay grade. 

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Its really interesting tines ahead in the world's of flight simulation. Vr sim is becoming more and more mainstream and starting to take real steps into commercial training. Indeed we are looking very seriously in our operation. 

The latest tease from NOR Platform is very interesting. Unrealengine UE5 has addressed the issues from previous versions and is aiming squarely at flight sim. The NOR platform appears to be initially aimed at commercial customers but reading between the lines and looking at the promo stuff they are taking some swipes at dcs and I'll be very surprised if they done release a consumer version in the fairly near future. They have identified the market is there and filled pretty much only by dcs. With their far more modern graphics and rendering engines, multithread and multicore as well as a more flexible development system, the performance will be considerably better. 

My big fear is that ED plans and development for a new engine may already be too late. If NOR releases a consumer version I'd be willing to bet there will be a large defection of customers to the more modern, better performing system. I love dcs and really want them to be the leader. If they are not already nearing a new engine and a direct competitor steps in offering a better performing product, this will only be bad news for dcs and ED and ultimately the loyal dcs users.  Revenue will drop and further development will be very hard as new customers will dry up and older ones start to move away. The sharks are circling right now and closing in. The next 12 months will see more and more rapid development from  UE, NOR, META and others who will be able to utilise new engines and build from the ground up. Everything is now very much aimed at VR implementation and maximum effective use of hardware.

 

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I don't think professional platforms would make any incursion on commercial gaming, but who knows.

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2 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

I don't think professional platforms would make any incursion on commercial gaming, but who knows.

 

3 hours ago, TED said:

Its really interesting tines ahead in the world's of flight simulation. Vr sim is becoming more and more mainstream and starting to take real steps into commercial training. Indeed we are looking very seriously in our operation. 

The latest tease from NOR Platform is very interesting. Unrealengine UE5 has addressed the issues from previous versions and is aiming squarely at flight sim. The NOR platform appears to be initially aimed at commercial customers but reading between the lines and looking at the promo stuff they are taking some swipes at dcs and I'll be very surprised if they done release a consumer version in the fairly near future. They have identified the market is there and filled pretty much only by dcs. With their far more modern graphics and rendering engines, multithread and multicore as well as a more flexible development system, the performance will be considerably better. 

My big fear is that ED plans and development for a new engine may already be too late. If NOR releases a consumer version I'd be willing to bet there will be a large defection of customers to the more modern, better performing system. I love dcs and really want them to be the leader. If they are not already nearing a new engine and a direct competitor steps in offering a better performing product, this will only be bad news for dcs and ED and ultimately the loyal dcs users.  Revenue will drop and further development will be very hard as new customers will dry up and older ones start to move away. The sharks are circling right now and closing in. The next 12 months will see more and more rapid development from  UE, NOR, META and others who will be able to utilise new engines and build from the ground up. Everything is now very much aimed at VR implementation and maximum effective use of hardware.

 

NOR will not be a consumer product.

6 hours ago, St4rgun said:

As SilverDragon wrote in the Roadmap topic: "No Vulkan near term release yet.". 🙂

What is "near term" for ED if we are talking about complete graphic engine rewrite? A month / quarter / half a year / year / decade?

 

Context, did they mean Vulkan ( the GFX Engine) or Vulcan (the Aircraft).

Vulkan the GFX Engine was not announced to be in the near term, which is usually the next few months.

Before Vulkan is released, you'll likely see some nice videos for it.


Edited by SkateZilla
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11 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

 

Context, did they mean Vulkan ( the GFX Engine) or Vulcan (the Aircraft).

Vulkan the GFX Engine was not announced to be in the near term, which is usually the next few months.

Before Vulkan is released, you'll likely see some nice videos for it.

 

It was an obvious typo by SilverDragon which I automatically corrected here. That discussion was about Vulkan API.

You are right Vulkan deployment was not announced to be in the near term, the last "announcement" was in the 2021. January newsletter which "announced" it for Q3 2021. as a "planned date". I know, I know it is not "set in stone" blah, blah, blah.

Since then they chose it's better to not "announce" anything just to be sure. The standard "development is ongoing", or "making good progress" are the only info.

The one and only "Multicore Development Report" on Oct 15th 2021. was the last "detailed" info on that topic. Based on that I assumed that at least half a year, but realistically a year more is needed which would mean Q4 2022. But now I say this could be 1-3 years, who knows?

I honestly understand everything, it's normal that they didn't give regular infos in the first 4 years on the development. But after passing some "announced" "preliminary date" I think the community is deserved - not the deployment, but - at least info on the progress somehow regularly. I don't ask for impossible things, just some report at least quarterly or to be more generous once per half a year. After the last such "detailed" report more than half a year is passed.

If in this (hopefully) last phase of the development a developer can't say a word about the current status at least twice a year then it's really depressing.

I simply lost interest now.

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  • 1 month later...
On 5/1/2022 at 12:24 PM, SkateZilla said:

Just to clarify, ED isnt "Delaying the integration of Vulkan" there's a separate team that's assigned to do Vulkan, the teams working on projects (F/A-18C/F-16C/AH-64D etc etc) are different teams.

As stated numerous times, writing a new engine from zero is a vast task, then comes the process of converting assets to the new engine.

It's not a "Low Priority", while Vulkan and the Multi-Thread recoding of the core are not "Paid DLC", having those 2 items integrated will resolve many long standing issues with the simulation for everyone, thus pleasing the current customers as well as the future customers that were waiting to fully experience what DCS World has to offer because of the limits of the engine's performance, pretty confident if the FPS and Performance issues are resolved, more revenue will be generated from current users as well as new users.

Transitioning to a new API is a huge task for most studios that use licensed engine, and it's an even bigger task for ED as they build their own engine.

Moving from DX11 to Vulkan isnt just write a new engine, compile, test, release.

There's Multiple phases (from experience w/ other studios it's usually about the same with some minor differences),
-Planning Features/Support
   knowing what features they want implemented, support for other devices and api's, ie VR, Tobi, TrackIR, OpenXR, etc etc
   ie, ED May have Mentioned Vulkan Development has started in 2018, but actual coding phase likely wouldn't have started for weeks/months after that.

-Upgrading Development Workflow to use the new API's Development tools
   ie upgrading the computers to include all software/plugins etc to use with developing for Vulkan.


-Supporting Applications Integration
   For ED, it would be things like ModelViewer would need to be re-done to use the new renderer engine etc, as well as tools used to create effects/shaders etc.


-Initial Core Compile
   Building the initial Engine, with just the ability to render, testing the engine with the Graphics Container formats etc etc

-Adding Features/API Support
   Expanding the Engine to include other APIs (Oculus, OpenXR, SteamVR, TrackIR, etc etc etc)
   This is usually a pretty long phase, as adding features/API's may conflict with previous integrated items and previous integrations will have to be re-coded etc.

-Converting Assets
   Assets usually need converting as most engines require specific container formats or properties set a specific way, mainly adjust the Exporters to export properly for the new engine, and convert all the assets (textures, models, shaders, effects etc to work within the new engine).

-Internal Deployment
   Adding/Interfacing the new engine to the main core, Coding the Core of the Sim to recognize the new engine.

-Internal Testing
  Often one of the longest phases, catching all the bugs, exceptions, oddities that comes with converting assets from one engine to another.

-External Testing 
   When Beta testers usually start testing on wider hardware profile ranges.

-Initial Deployment
    When it's deployed to public builds.


I've worked with other Game Developers when they moved from DX9 to DX12 or from DX9 to Vulkan, and we did internal testing for over 2 years before deploying to Beta Testers for another year before launching it to everyone, and that was utilizing a prebuilt licensed rendering engine.

Just to Note a few things,
-DCS / EDGE DX11 Engine was around 5 years from first mentioning that a new Renderer was needed to initial public release.
-While the CV19 didn't stop development, it likely slowed some things down. not just on ED's end, but likely on Kronos' end as well if ED's team sent support req./tickets to Kronos during initial programming and such.).

 

Thanks for the info, I think more people are concerned with transparency than anything. The fact that I learned all of this from someone outside of their dev team speaks volumes. It's completely understandable that an immense task such as building a new engine from scratch takes time. It's also understandable from a developers perspective to not put themselves in a position where failure to deliver is met with a large communal scrutiny. That being said, being kept in the dark on progress will be met with even more. I don't think ED's work has ever really been questioned, or their intentions as a business. Transparency goes a long way, even when the outcome isn't favorable. I hope to see some sort of beta release soon, keeping the option to use the stable version we currently have. Is it safe to say that once open beta is released, they will likely have feedback much earlier from the plethora of programmers, developers, and modders that are a part of the community? Once it gets to that point, that is.

While this all might seem like slight to them (if i'm projecting) the fact that people are antsy to use their work should be satisfying, and criticism welcome. As if there were none, people just wouldn't care enough to gripe about it. 

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The devs of many franchises are working their way to Vulkan via new solution out of DX11 or DX12.

I think that transparency is a luxury as far as your game dev is concerned, and so it should be. To be privileged enough to play the beta of a game is nice.

Anyone following Star Citizen in Alpha knows the battle they have had in creating their own engine and developing tools to make the core game. There is a good, recent game dev video explaining why it's taking sooo long to get to Vulkan implementation, Gen12 rendering etc. 

CIG seem to be at the forefront of explaining the tech, and why it is such a long process.


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  • 1 month later...
On 6/15/2022 at 7:49 PM, DigitalEngine said:

While I don't think the creator of this video intended to do so, it does effectively demonstrate that DCS desperately needs to be Vulkanized. Reference the creators specs and fps.
Even so, it is a really nice video.

DCS WORLD | SOUTH ATLANTIC MAP - USHUAIA | VR PERFORMANCE | Varjo Aero 4K VR

 

I can almost garauntee he's being throttled.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 8/6/2022 at 2:40 AM, SkateZilla said:

I can almost garauntee he's being throttled.

Yes of course.... with his configuration he should have around X2 FPS...
We need the optimization for VR.

When DCS will be optimized i will buy the A-10 warthog 🙂

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TL;DR as far as I can tell would be that there are more important construction sites, first and foremost the scripting engine. Hop onto a busy multiplayer server like Enigma, get a whopping 17 to 24 FPS, then check out performance metrics, and the game is stuck with the Lua task eating a tonne of CPU and the rest of the game doing more or less nothing. Vulkan won't fix that.

The other thing is of course, why not go DX12, which offers about the same features? In therms of graphics, that gets you on the vast majority of gaming systems (Windows, and current XBoxes) and unless you really REALLY want that 3% Linux Gaming marketshare and maybe target the Switch, Vulkan is a bit of a weird decision from a pure ROI perspective. Apple and PS4 are using their own things again, so there's no gains to be made in those directions.


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I don't see DCS "ever" running on a native xbox, so the advantages of DX12 are mute at that point, and i suspect it was just a reaction to not DX, or it's what our devs want to learn, which is often the way these things get chosen.  Vulkan could streamline the GPU side, but muiti threading, which is not trivial, might address the scripting issues...  you need both, and i suspect thats why its taking so long... this is not just search and replace ... 

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1 hour ago, speed-of-heat said:

I don't see DCS "ever" running on a native xbox, so the advantages of DX12 are mute at that point

Yeah, I agre with that; it's just a general observation on the choice between Vulkan and D3D12. If you have something that's only supposed to run on platforms supporting both, there's no reason to make it religious.

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1 hour ago, Laurreth said:

Yeah, I agre with that; it's just a general observation on the choice between Vulkan and D3D12. If you have something that's only supposed to run on platforms supporting both, there's no reason to make it religious.

agree from a perf pov you could likely split hairs or count angels on pinheads for the delta, i really suspect it was someone just wanting to do something that wasn't DX

and maybe allowed the Mac port, but i don't really see that either if i am honest 

SYSTEM SPECS: Hardware Intel Corei7-12700KF @ 5.1/5.3p & 3.8e GHz, 64Gb RAM, 4090 FE, Dell S2716DG, Virpil T50CM3 Throttle, WinWIng Orion 2 & F-16EX + MFG Crosswinds V2, Varjo Aero
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2 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

MAC comes to mind...

AFAIK for Apple stuff you'd need to do a native Metal implementation, yet another shade of green. Metal 2 and up may even be suitable for games.


Edited by Laurreth
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