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What is the in-game difference between AIM-7M and MH?


Silvern

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From what I heard, the MH has LOFT, but the M now has the new flight model

 

It feels like they both have the new flight model - you can get lofted kills from 30-35 miles with the MH. I don't think it would've got anywhere near that with the old flight model, even with lofting.

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A bit offtopic here but anyway, does the Aim120 already have the loft cappability like the MH or will it come in later patches?

 

It always has had it, but the parameters are different for it engaging and it does it automatically. I believe the target has to be more than 40nm away before it'll loft.

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It always has had it, but the parameters are different for it engaging and it does it automatically. I believe the target has to be more than 40nm away before it'll loft.

 

Mmm, when FC3 was launched and way prior to DCSW 2.5 AMRAAM did had loft when the target was >25mn or so and for that you needed to pitch up prior to launch. But this was deleted at some point probably cause the bad modelled navigation logic at that point prevented the missile from the original purpose (increase range) and its been not working for a long time if I'm not wrong. At least i have not been able to make the Amraam loft for several months now.

 

Can anyone confirm this or maybe it was me doing something totally wrong?

 

I have heard that the navigation for the AIM120 its been reworked including the inclussion of lofting logic, hence my question.

 

PD: I remeber that in one of the version of the FC series the AIM120 and R27ER were totally capable of 30MN kills, (in the case of the Aim120 through lofting), dont know at which time something was changed avoiding this to happen. Its been many months now where launching an aim120 over 15mn is a total waste even when the opponent only makes a soft turn to crank and nothing more.


Edited by falcon_120
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Mmm, when FC3 was launched and way prior to DCSW 2.5 AMRAAM did had loft when the target was >25mn or so and for that you needed to pitch up prior to launch. But this was deleted at some point probably cause the bad modelled navigation logic at that point prevented the missile from the original purpose (increase range) and its been not working for a long time if I'm not wrong. At least i have not been able to make the Amraam loft for several months now.

 

Can anyone confirm this or maybe it was me doing something totally wrong?

 

I have heard that the navigation for the AIM120 its been reworked including the inclussion of lofting logic, hence my question.

 

PD: I remeber that in one of the version of the FC series the AIM120 and R27ER were totally capable of 30MN kills, (in the case of the Aim120 through lofting), dont know at which time something was changed avoiding this to happen. Its been many months now where launching an aim120 over 15mn is a total waste even when the opponent only makes a soft turn to crank and nothing more.

 

I'll put it another way - it lofts right now, you just need to be a certain distance away (and possibly at a certain altitude - but I definitely saw it lofting with a 40kft, 40nm shot). I don't believe they've made any changes to the 120B/C other than correcting the HUD range indicators in the current patch. The guidance fixes aren't released yet - they should be coming in the next open beta patch.

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I will try it then. though i'm not really convinced that this is how it should work. I think that it should be selectable from the SMS page, and it should work from over 20/25 mn at least, it makes no sense in a 40mn shot since it won't get to the target anyway.

 

Since lofting is completely about extending range, it makes the most sense from 40nm. Its failure to get to the target are from other issues (like pulling 9gs out of the loft at 22nm to target). Considering 120s do in fact pull hard into the target out of the loft at ~22nm, is a good indication of why they won't loft at or near that range. Under a certain range lofting would be less efficient since it would only make the missile take a longer path to the target, which would get you killed in a joust. The AIM-7MH can hit a non maneuvering target at 40k' 38nm when lofting, and also won't loft at 21nm. No reason the 120 shouldn't perform at least equally to this.

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Since lofting is completely about extending range, it makes the most sense from 40nm. Its failure to get to the target are from other issues (like pulling 9gs out of the loft at 22nm to target). Considering 120s do in fact pull hard into the target out of the loft at ~22nm, is a good indication of why they won't loft at or near that range. Under a certain range lofting would be less efficient since it would only make the missile take a longer path to the target, which would get you killed in a joust. The AIM-7MH can hit a non maneuvering target at 40k' 38nm when lofting, and also won't loft at 21nm. No reason the 120 shouldn't perform at least equally to this.

 

Just some points to clarify:

-Lofting is about extending range, but it should be triggered before 40mn, actually is the lofting (and clever navigation in general) that let a missile like the amraam reach 40-45 mn; not talking there about latest variants with dual state engine and such...

-The high g pull out of the loft is true, but it is a problem that affects all distances whether the loft is initiated at 40mn or 22mn, the difference is that at 40mn the energy will be so low that any minor maneuver will waste the shot.

-I totally agree that lofting is the most efficient navigation profile only under certain circumstances (high altitude & long range).

-I really need to test this, since i havent had time at all with the AIM7MH, but i really have not been able to kill anything with the aim120 from 38mn even when firing 40k and M1.5 with the F15 since more than a year ago, and i haven't notice a "lofting profile" either, but that could be me not paying attention. Totally agree that if the aim7MH is able to do 38MN so should the amraam :).


Edited by falcon_120
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The improved missile navigation that first was added to the MIM-104 Patriot will also soon be added to the AIM-7 (and the AIM-120), so they should get even better then, as they will better conserve energy. I guess other missiles in DCS will follow.

Internally, the AIM-7 and AIM-120 versions now have the improved navigation system. Additionally, the internal AIM-7M now has several significant changes like corrected motor thrust-altitude dependence based on nozzle exit area and atmosphere pressure, adjusted drag and lift curves based on wind tunnel test data, and other changes.

 

We are now carefully testing these changes before we release and move to all AIM-7 and AIM-120 versions.

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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

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The concept of the lofted delivery is that the missile is fired with the nose ~30 degrees above the horizon, thus the missile doesn’t need to pull G to loft

 

Loft angle should depend on target range at launch.

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What's not being mentioned here is that the Aim-7's missile's sensor gimbal is only 8 degrees. This means you HAVE to be far away in order to loft, or it will not be able to maintain guidance to target. It will have to head more straight at the target, because it can only fly 8 degrees off its own boresight.


Edited by Banzaiib
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No, that's the iFoV. The gimbal is more than 45 degrees - I don't recall the actual number. I suspect that even the oldest of missiles had more than 8 degrees of gimbal movement.

 

What's not being mentioned here is that the Aim-7's missile's sensor gimbal is only 8 degrees. This means you HAVE to be far away in order to loft, or it will not be able to maintain guidance to target. It will have to head more straight at the target, because it can only fly 8 degrees off its own boresight.

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