Tunguska versus EW symbology questions

[Pizzicato]

Hey guys,

 

 

 

I'm curious to understand something about the behaviour of the 2C6M Tunguska.

 

I was playing around with a mission I created to learn a little about the various types of Russian-made SAM systems versus the Hornet and discovered that the Tunguska seems to be able to launch SA-19s at you while still in Search Mode. The Tunguska shows up in Search Mode on the EW page at about 9 miles (when approached at 10,000 ft). It then begins launching at about 3.5 miles, but without changing the mode of its Fire Radar. The "issues" that I'm seeing are:

 

• The S6 symbol never moves from the Critical Band to the Lethal Band
  
• The S6 symbology on the HUD never changes to the long dashed line
  
• There's no SAM or CW symbology on the cockpit warning panel
  

 

I'm not sure if I'm looking at a bug, or just completely understand the Hornet's EW symbology and/or the Tunguska's behaviour. :book:

 

Any thoughts or insights?

[Cik]

tunguska is not radar guide, it is radio-command guidance.

 

 

that is to say, it never actually locks you to guide the missile. it keeps track of you via a search radar function, and then constantly steers the missile by transmitting updated track coordinates of your position constantly.

 

 

SA-6: lock you, establish datalink, launch missile, missile guides to reflected radar energy. missile hits you (or not) based on it's ability to steer to you and to see you at least most of the way.

 

 

2S6: radar sees you (or visual, or any other means i suppose) launcher gives launch order to missile. motor ignites: steer 20 degrees left, 5 degrees up, 2 degrees down, 5 degrees right etc. until it hits you.

 

 

doesn't lock you at any point because the missile doesn't need reflected radar energy to hit you. just needs a datalink connection to the launcher and for the launcher to be able to see you somehow.

[Pizzicato]

Great explanation. Hugely helpful.

 

Thanks Cik! :thumbup:

[enigma6584]

Yes, thank you Cik. I did not know this as well. Learned something new today.

[Svend_Dellepude]

tunguska is not radar guide, it is radio-command guidance.

 

 

that is to say, it never actually locks you to guide the missile. it keeps track of you via a search radar function, and then constantly steers the missile by transmitting updated track coordinates of your position constantly.

 

 

SA-6: lock you, establish datalink, launch missile, missile guides to reflected radar energy. missile hits you (or not) based on it's ability to steer to you and to see you at least most of the way.

 

 

2S6: radar sees you (or visual, or any other means i suppose) launcher gives launch order to missile. motor ignites: steer 20 degrees left, 5 degrees up, 2 degrees down, 5 degrees right etc. until it hits you.

 

 

doesn't lock you at any point because the missile doesn't need reflected radar energy to hit you. just needs a datalink connection to the launcher and for the launcher to be able to see you somehow.

 

Is this something you know or something you are making up? Because it does indeed have a tracking radar.

[backspace340]

Is this something you know or something you are making up? Because it does indeed have a tracking radar.

 

I believe it actually uses the tracking radar for its gun, but the missiles are optical/command guided. So I think you *can* see the Tunguska lock you, but it'll only happen when you're very close and it's trying to gun you down. It can fire missiles without locking you.

[Svend_Dellepude]

Optical tracking should be a fallback in case the crew is not able to use the radar as far as tracking goes. That goes for missiles as well as the gun.

[pepin1234]

The deal is with the missile itself are not radar guided.

 

Some info here:

 

Early variants of the Tunguska series introduced an electroptical tracker to provide silent angle tracking in jamming environments. The electro-optical tracking system includes a longwave (8 - 14 μm band) thermal imager for target acquisition and tracking, and a dual band short (3 - 5 μm) / midwave (0.6 -1.1. μm) IR tracker for angular measurement of the missile beacon.

[The_Nephilim]

From what I read on the Tunguska, Russian crew will lock you first with the radar to locate you then switch to the optical/IR sensors and shut off radar so if you get a lock then it turns off real quick expect a missile has been shot at you..

 

 

The missle is IR but they will lock you first in most cases..

[Ironhand]

Perhaps this might be of some help in this discussion: Hot Shot Radar System. The tracking radar is used in support of both the gun and the 9M311 missile but its use differs depending on the weapon system.

[Mesha44]

Thanks Ironhand

[pepin1234]

The only visual difference between those two version 2К22М1 Тунгуска-М1 и 2К22М Тунгуска-М is the radar, the missiles are the same size so. the most probably they never made the radar modification, but added the new missiles 9M311-M1 with some systems changes and this could be enough and cheaper.

 

is hard to believe the 9M311M or 9M311 (the in game current missiles) have IRL such in game guidance... what we got look like a beam-riding SACLOS Malyutka missile :D

 

https://goo.gl/images/4RwbPA

Edited August 23, 2018 by pepin1234

[umkhunto]

From what I read on the Tunguska, Russian crew will lock you first with the radar to locate you then switch to the optical/IR sensors and shut off radar so if you get a lock then it turns off real quick expect a missile has been shot at you..

 

 

The missle is IR but they will lock you first in most cases..

The SA-19 is not IR guided. It's command guided. This is the reason the missile is unaffected by flare countermeasures. It's what makes it such a scary platform. Most platforms will never get a launch warning (either laser guidance warning or MWS) and standard decoys do not affect it. The radar is used for search, track, and gun solutions.

 

If you spend time in the KA-50 or A-10C, you will get a laser guidance warning on you when the Tunguska is about to fire.

[Alfa]

The only visual difference between those two version 2К22М1 Тунгуска-М1 и 2К22М Тунгуска-М is the radar..

 

There are 3 main versions of the Tunguska and they are quite easily distinguishable:

 

- Tunguska(initial version) used the GM-352 chassis and had only four ready-to-fire missiles(2 on either side of the turret.

 

- Tunguska-M uses an updated version of the same chassis(GM-352M), but has 8 missiles(cluster of four on either side of the turret).

 

- Tunguska-M1 uses the new GM-5975 chassis and also has 8(but updated) missiles.

 

.. so the most probably they never made the radar modification, but added the new missiles 9M311-M1 with some systems changes and this could be enough and cheaper.

 

The version in DCS is the -M1(with the new chassis) and has been as far back as I can remember - at least it was when I was on the testing team and assigned the task of testing it for FC-1(or Black Shark - cannot remember).

 

The bottom line is that the exact nature of operation, degree of automation and capability of the system depends on the specific version.