Mirage III or IAI Dagger Poll

[Pikey]

I can see why the vote skewed to the Mirage 3, but I guess those voting just don't care about having fuel to come back (or aren't interested in the Falklands conflict setting).

 

 

153 sorties from the Daggers. The Mirage 3's could only do pretend attacks. Shame the vote is not so useful for the setting, but either way I'm not too disappointed since the other aircraft might be more usable elsewhere.

[jojo]

And if i had to pick between a Mirage IIIE or a Mirage V it would depend on the exact variant as there are many Mirage V variants that i would say are superior to the Mirage IIIE.

 

Can you tell us which variant and why ?

[Donny]

Mirage III for me all the way.

[Bananabrai]

I just red, that the Kfir C.2 could carry AGM-45 Shrike. Is that the same case for uprated Daggers?

 

If we'd get such an uprated Dagger, I see a lot of people change their mind. SEAD is totally underrated :D ...

 

I don't think that just because in A/C was exported more or saw more use, it is the one to go for. This is the initial approach of DCS, but we don't have to keep that.

 

I am going for the Dagger, just because it seems a bit more exclusive and we already have a french airplane :huh:

[KIKE92]

I preffer the Mirage IIIE since it was the most widely used variant and would allow for a ton liveries to be added, and since the Mirage 5 is basically a radarless E it wont be too difficult to develope in the future.

[Myst]

Wasn't the Dagger a modified Mirage V, whereas the Finger (the upgraded Dagger) the ~Kfir C.2 standard?

[jamespejam]

Mirage IIIE is the sexier daughter of the Dassault family

[mattebubben]

Can you tell us which variant and why ?

 

There are a large number of Mirage 5 variants with different avionics sensors and systems.

(Some with no radar some with the Cyrano II radar some with the Cyrano IV radar and some with the Agave radar etc)

 

 

Pakistan is a great Example.

Pakistan ordered 3 distinct Mirage 5 Variants (4 if you include 2 seater)

 

the first was the Mirage 5PA and was a "normal" radarless attack version.

https://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/7/7/0/2818077.jpg?v=v40

 

the second was the Mirage 5PA2 which is a fighter variant with the Cyrano IV radar (Same radar as the Mirage F1)

https://defence.pk/pdf/media/paf-mirage-5pa2.3912/full?d=1460622296

 

and the third was the Mirage 5PA3 which was a Anti-shipping variant equipped with the Agave and was exocet capable.

https://www.militaryimages.net/media/pakistan-af-mirage-5pa3-with-am-39-exocet.14261/full?d=1521490552

 

the Mirage 5 tended to differ from customer to customer as to their capabilities and not all of them were the radarless attack aircraft that the first version was.

 

And then we have the Mirage 50 which was the next step after the Mirage 5 and differed even more.

 

With the Mirage IIIE most aircraft of the family are pretty much the same but that is not true of the Mirage 5 family.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_5#Variants

 

 

Also to note when it comes to Argentina they also operated the Mirage 5 as during the war Peru Donated 10 mirage 5P aircraft to Argentina including weapons such as the AS-30

the Aircraft and weapons were delivered to Argentina before wars end but i dont think they got there in time to see service.

Edited September 5, 2018 by mattebubben

[jojo]

I just red, that the Kfir C.2 could carry AGM-45 Shrike. Is that the same case for uprated Daggers?

 

If we'd get such an uprated Dagger, I see a lot of people change their mind. SEAD is totally underrated :D ...

 

I don't think that just because in A/C was exported more or saw more use, it is the one to go for. This is the initial approach of DCS, but we don't have to keep that.

 

I am going for the Dagger, just because it seems a bit more exclusive and we already have a french airplane :huh:

 

Mirage III E can do SEAD with AS37 Martel missile.

 

By the way, the optional rocket on Mirage III isn’t JATO, it’s used to increase ceiling by providing extra 1500kg of thrust.

It can be replaced with fuel tank.

[jojo]

There are a large number of Mirage 5 variants with different avionics sensors and systems.

 

 

Pakistan is a great Example.

Pakistan ordered 3 distinct Mirage 5 Variants (4 if you include 2 seater)

 

the first was the Mirage 5PA and was a "normal" radarless attack version.

 

 

the second was the Mirage 5PA2 which is a fighter variant with the Cyrano IV radar (Same radar as the Mirage F1)

 

and the third was the Mirage 5PA3 which was a Anti-shipping variant equipped with the Agave and was exocet capable.

 

 

the Mirage 5 tended to differ from customer to customer as to their capabilities and not all of them were the radarless attack aircraft that the first version was.

 

 

And then we have the Mirage 50 which was the next step after the Mirage 5 and differed even more.

 

 

With the Mirage IIIE most aircraft of the family are pretty much the same but that is not true of the Mirage 5 family.

 

That’s niche market.

 

And it’s always the same thing “I want this variant of the aircraft”.

Do you have any documentation available about Mirage 5PA3 ?

Why not Mirage 50EV then ?

 

 

We have a reasonable amount of documentation about Mirage III E/ Mirage III O. It’s doable.

[mattebubben]

That’s niche market.

 

And it’s always the same thing “I want this variant of the aircraft”.

Do you have any documentation available about Mirage 5PA3 ?

Why not Mirage 50EV then ?

 

 

We have a reasonable amount of documentation about Mirage III E/ Mirage III O. It’s doable.

 

 

?...

Why are you combative with me about this?

 

I simply said if i had to pick between a Mirage IIIE and a Mirage 5 it would be on a case to case basis and that some Mirage 5 variants were more capable (i never said i wanted those particular variants only that there were some that were more capable).

 

You then asked me to give an example so i gave an example of different Mirage 5 variants.

I have never said i wanted a 5PA2 or a 5PA3 i only gave examples of Mirage 5 variants that are more capable then the mirage IIIE in some ways...

 

So dont try to turn this into me begging for the most capable variant as im not...

 

 

The most important aspect for me as to what aircraft i want is not how capable it is but rather how well it fits in DCS and with the maps and scenarios that exist (or are planned).

 

 

That is why i would take a Dagger over a Mirage IIICJ or a Mirage IIIE or EA.

 

 

And why i might take a Mirage 5 AD or Mirage 5 EAD over a Mirage IIIE or a Mirage 5F.

(Mirage 5AD being the radarless Attack variant and the 5EAD being the Radar equipped Fighter-Bomber version)

as the 5AD and the 5 EAD were the UAE variants and as such they fit perfectly with the Persian Gulf map.

 

For me the best pick for DCS (Outside the Falklands map) would probably be either the UAE variants or the Egyptian Mirage 5SDE Figher-Bomber.

 

 

The Egyptian variant works pretty well with map since even though Egypt is not a part of the map they did see some action during the

Iran-Iraq war (with a few being sent to Support Iraq and two being lost to Iranian fighters) and as such its pretty plausible to to add them to most scenarios for this map

that invloves conflict with iran (Saudi,UAE vs Iran etc).

 

 

Pakistani or French Mirage III or Mirage 5 variants could also work as they could also fit in Fictional Persian Gulf scenarios

(With Pakistan Being a Neighbour to Iran and France is capable of sending Expeditionary forces to take part in conflicts in the area and also being the most plausible for the Caucasus map)

 

 

 

With the Egyptian aircraft also being interesting due to the fact that They were actually bought by Saudi Arabia but for Egypt

so they have additional tiein with the area as even though they never flew in Saudi Arabia as they were delivered straight to Egypt (though in Saudi markings).

http://www.easternorbat.com/html/dassault_mirage_5_eng.html

Edited September 5, 2018 by mattebubben

[ViFF]

After doing some perusing on Hebrew forums related to the history of the Mirage variants that served in the IAF and asking some retired SMEs from the IAF I found out to my dismay that the IAI Neshers that were sold to Argentina (IAI Daggers) did not have any RWR nor countermeasures

 

:(

 

These two defensive systems were added only in the Kfir C.2 among many other major changes such as modifying the internal and external structure to fit the American J79 engine that was license built at IAI's Bedek Division (same engine used on the F-4E Phantom). The Kfir C.2 entered operational service in the IAF in 1975.

 

I do not know if the program to upgrade the avionics and defensive systems of the IAI Daggers to the level of the Kfir C.2 was carried out in time for the Falklands Conflict in 1982.

 

So IMHO without these two defensive systems and not having a radar this pretty much places the Nesher in the same or even less capable category than the Mirage IIICJ.

 

I really hope that if the Mirage IIICJ will be chosen it will be with the Snecma Atar 09C engine rather than the Atar 09B with the silly looking "eyelid" afterburner exhaust can.

 

Some data:

 

Static Thrust Sea Level, lbf, Snecma Atar 9B / 9C

Full Mil: 9,200 / 9,430

Full AB: 13,228 / 13,669

 

Weights, lbs, Mirage IIICJ / IAI Dagger

Basic Zero Fuel Weight (with pilot & 100% gun ammo): 14,351 / 15,253

Gross Weight, 100% internal fuel + 2xAIM-9: 19,393 / 21,709

 

So in summary, if you compare the Mirage IIICJ to the IAI Dagger:

 

The Mirage IIICJ is lighter, therefore has better Thrust to Weight Ratio (if both have the Atar 09C engine).

 

The Mirage IIICJ has better Sustained Turn Rate, and better overall Energy Retainment.

 

The Mirage IIICJ has better Acceleration and "Time to Climb" performance

 

The Mirage IIICJ is shorter in length, has better Agility in the Lateral Plane (pitch axis)

 

The above last point has been confirmed by IAF pilots that flew both types. They said that the IAI Nesher was heavier, less maneuverable, less agile, and less capable "holding energy in the turn" compared to the Mirage IIICJ.

 

Conclusion: The Mirage IIICJ will stand a better chance in dogfights vs the MiG-19 and Sea Harrier.

 

 

Additionaly:

 

Only the Mirage IIICJ has a Radar, which should arguably work in theory for what it was designed for (intercepting Soviet bombers).

 

Only the Mirage IIICJ has the ability to employ the Matra R530 Air to Air SARH Missile.

 

S!

Edited September 5, 2018 by ViFF

[jojo]

Mirage III EA does have Cyrano II radar, R530 missile and Atar 9C engine.

 

In all honesty, R530 wasn’t known to be very reliable and was totally outdated in 1982...

[Vilab]

Mirage III, hoping to get a E version

 

Please RAZBAM, if you ever make a IIIE, don t do an export version if it is a downgrade ( in carried weaponery or sensors ) from the original one, like Aviodev plans to do with Spanish F1

[Koriel]

While I'm a fan of Razbam, I've decided not to get another delta. The Tucano and the F-15E are the ones I'm waiting for..

[Spudknocker]

I cannot wait for the F-15E but when it comes to future aircraft, the IAI Nesher (the Argentines called it the dagger) would fit the Falklands War a lot better.

 

In terms of a new delta wing aircraft, I would love to one day see an Atlas Cheetah, or Late model Kfir like a C10 or 12, that would also be pretty cool for razbam as well seeing as the Ecuadorian Air Force flies both the Kfir C10 and the Atlas Cheetah!

[jojyrocks]

I am hoping for the Mirage 3EA for the Argentinian air force, Its actually a Mirage 3E of the French slightly modded to meet Argentinian standards. The Mirage 3EA is more modern than the IAI Nesher/Dagger and the Mirage 3CJ.

 

 

 

The Mirage 3EA has improved set fitted with Cyrano II radar with additional air-to-ground modes compared to Mirage IIIC, improved navigation equipment, including TACAN and a Doppler Radar in undernose bulge and better high cap drop tanks for range.

 

 

Pretty sure the developers can get data on this if they can on the Mirage 2000. I mean this is a retired aircraft, not many secrets there.

[jojyrocks]

I am hoping for the Mirage 3EA for the Argentinian air force, Its actually a Mirage 3E of the French slightly modded to meet Argentinian standards. The Mirage 3EA is more modern than the IAI Nesher/Dagger and the Mirage 3CJ.

 

 

 

The Mirage 3EA has improved set fitted with Cyrano II radar with additional air-to-ground modes compared to Mirage IIIC, improved navigation equipment, including TACAN and a Doppler Radar in undernose bulge and better high cap drop tanks for range.

 

 

Pretty sure the devs can get data on this if they can on the Mirage 2000 which is more modern. I mean this is a retired aircraft, not many secrets there.

[jojo]

I am hoping for the Mirage 3EA for the Argentinian air force, Its actually a Mirage 3E of the French slightly modded to meet Argentinian standards. The Mirage 3EA is more modern than the IAI Nesher/Dagger and the Mirage 3CJ.

 

 

 

The Mirage 3EA has improved set fitted with Cyrano II radar with additional air-to-ground modes compared to Mirage IIIC, improved navigation equipment, including TACAN and a Doppler Radar in undernose bulge and better high cap drop tanks for range.

 

 

Pretty sure the devs can get data on this if they can on the Mirage 2000 which is more modern. I mean this is a retired aircraft, not many secrets there.

 

In fact export Mirage III E have a flush Doppler radar under the nose, contrary to the French Mirage III E which has the bulge.

Agreed with everything else :thumbup:

 

 

 

Post war Mirage IIIEA cockpit.

Edited September 5, 2018 by jojo

[jojyrocks]

Thanks for the info! I was unaware as to what modifications did the French make for giving the Mirage 3E modded for Argentina.

 

 

 

Nice pics! cockpit looks good and modern for that time. The radar should be at least better than CJ model...anyway it should at least be a bit more upgraded than the CJ.

 

 

 

 

 

This should be a better sale than the IAI Dagger which mostly does not have a radar.

[jojo]

In fact some export Mirage III E got an improved (smaller) Doppler system :smilewink:

 

Mirage III O

 

 

Mirage III C/ CJ used Cyrano I bis radar.

Mirage III E family used Cyrano II radar. This radar is more reliable (transistors replaces tubes) and has AG modes for navigation and terrain avoidance. Radar can also be used to guide AS30 AG missile.

 

French Mirage III E were multirole, some squadrons being dedicated to AA and others to AG.

Edited September 5, 2018 by jojo

[=DECOY=]

Just a note, the votes on the website are going to be disregarded.

 

A MASSIVE Mirage III fan decided to rig the website poll

(got to praise the enthusiasm) :megalol:

 

 

The results are now going to be from here and the Razbam facebook page :)

Edited September 5, 2018 by =DECOY=

[jojo]

Just a note, the votes on the website are going to be disregarded.

 

A MASSIVE Mirage III fan decided to rig the website poll

(got to praise the enthusiasm) :megalol:

 

 

The results are now going to be from here and the Razbam facebook page :)

 

Before anyone ask: I swear it isn’t me because...I don’t know how to hack a website poll :D

[uri_ba]

Just adding up on what Viff wrote in post #40.

Cyrano of the CJ was so unreliable that it was often not even turned on, As it would usually malfuntion and feed incorrect range to the gunsight. Later in it's service life of the CJ in the IAF radar was removed to be replaced with a ballast and in later years a simple telemeter (such as the one installed on the MV/Nesher).

 

IAF never did use The 550. It was deemed too restrictive, mostly due to launch contraints and the radar faliure rates.

 

For years the IAF flew the CJs with 3 tanks. Then later with 3 tanks + 2*heaters. (Shafrir 1 initially for a short period, then Shafrir 2 and Aim-9D).oddly enough IAF CJ pilots in 73, preferred the S2 over the 9D despite the fact is was heavier and had more drag.

 

CJ was also briefly was seen in Alert duties with AA-2 missiles.

As the IAF found large stocks of them in 67 and they were more reliable then the Shafrir 1 (which were notorious for "dropping like a bidon", external fuel tank in french)

[jojo]

I think you did a mistake between R530 and the R550 Magic :music_whistling:

 

Overall Israel got its Mirage III CJ at the same time as the French Air Force, so yes they had teething problems like many new weapon systems.

 

Mirage III was a huge leap from Super Mystère B2