MK20 Issue

[Revelation]

While the MK20 did get a nice buff in its ability to deal damage it is currently not modeled as a CBU unit. You need a direct hit for a target to be "killed."

 

In the attached tracks I have multiple targets from trucks to tanks. Unless you hit the vehicle with a direct hit it will not destroy it. For instance in mk20-test2.miz I have two vehicles approximately 20 feet apart. Only the vehicle that was "directly hit" by the MK20 was destroyed even though both vehicles were well within the Cluster dispersal area. I have tried from 500ft to 1200ft dispersal.

 

It really appears as though it is a mk82 with a mk20 skin; that is what it looks like after the update today.

mk20_test.trk

mk20_test2.trk

[Svsmokey]

I wonder if the "direct hit" you speak of doesn't also apply to bombs as well now . Yesterday i dropped a snakeye on an IL-76 , crater directly under a wing root and no damage . Methinks possibly the problem you describe is more damage modeling than CBU-related .

[BoneDust]

I wonder if the "direct hit" you speak of doesn't also apply to bombs as well now . Yesterday i dropped a snakeye on an IL-76 , crater directly under a wing root and no damage . Methinks possibly the problem you describe is more damage modeling than CBU-related .

 

I've had that issue as well.

[Fercyful]

yes, we need more power ASAP (in almost all bombs)

[Revelation]

I don't think more power is what is needed. It is almost as if the individual bomblets aren't modeled. I think if the MK20 and the CBU99 were more like the CBU-87, which they are in real life, would solve a lot of issues with these bombs.

[Sandman1330]

Just tried out the MK20s, still useless. In fact, worse than before. Dispersed 4 of them right overtop of a closely clustered group of BTR-80s, the cluster pattern displayed right on top of them, and not a single one took damage.

[TheKardinal]

Disappointed to read that Mk20 Rockeyes are still, well, not worth dropping. I use the Hornet and Harrier and it would be so useful if these weapons worked as you would expect. I have seen the same symptoms of carpeting an area full of vehicles again and again with no hits. I know they are not guided sub munitions but, still, they never seem to work. I play on Hoggit Georgia at War server and some indertiction and strike missions place targets within wooded areas making it difficult to precisely locate targets...a decent cluster munitions provides an option here. Also, until the hornet gets a target pod a cluster munition would be helpful when you have to drop manually/CCIP and might not achieve a direct hit. Such a shame. I still don’t know what the ‘cumulative factor’ is talking about in the update log with regard to the rockeye mk118 sub munitions...anybody know?

[gekoiq]

Have experienced the same thing. Sometimes I get multiple kills in a tight cluster of vehicles, sometimes none of the vehicles take any damage at all, with the bomblet pattern (at least visually) lands directly on and completely envelops the formation of vehicles.

 

I'm not convinced that the bomblets themselves are the issue as much as the pattern they drop in. It's hard to judge the damage they do when you don't get hits period with them.

 

Either way, it would be *really* nice if ED could dedicate a little time to getting them working somewhat effectively, it would be really nice to have a reason to load something other than mk83s right now.

[Wags]

The Mk-20 works quite well now when delivered properly. The Mk-20 contains Mk-118 anti-armor submunitions. Each submunition uses a shaped-charged warhead to defeat armor. It is not a high explosive or fragmentation submunition that would have an appreciable blast radius per submunition. Given this, a direct hit is required with a Mk-118 except for lightly protected targets.

 

Until we add hard-wired munition dispense altitudes to match the DDI settings, it is very important that you set the HT value to 1500. It’s also best to release at a dive angle between 25 and 30 degrees and at an altitude of around 2,500 ft AGL.

 

 

In this track, a single Mk-20s are dropped against groups of trucks, BTR-80s, BMP-2s, T-55 (drop angle was too low), and T-72B. For a burst altitude of 1,500 feet, the coverage footprint is correct when released under the proper release parameters.

[NineLine]

While the MK20 did get a nice buff in its ability to deal damage it is currently not modeled as a CBU unit. You need a direct hit for a target to be "killed."

 

In the attached tracks I have multiple targets from trucks to tanks. Unless you hit the vehicle with a direct hit it will not destroy it. For instance in mk20-test2.miz I have two vehicles approximately 20 feet apart. Only the vehicle that was "directly hit" by the MK20 was destroyed even though both vehicles were well within the Cluster dispersal area. I have tried from 500ft to 1200ft dispersal.

 

It really appears as though it is a mk82 with a mk20 skin; that is what it looks like after the update today.

 

Taking control of your second track, using settings suggest by Wags above and also for safety sake changing the approach to target (about 90 degrees, so they were lined up instead of attacking from the side) I had no issue killing both vehicles in one pass.

[Cik]

actually i've dropped 4x MK20 on 8-vehicle groups of trucks, HY-2, BMP-1 and BMP-2 and assuming my "stick" lands correctly on the vehicle group i get reliable 100% kill rate.

 

 

just give the CBU-87 / 99 the same treatment and they will be good. as MK20 is right now it is much, much more effective than MK82.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Cik

[Eldur]

The Mk-20 works quite well now when delivered properly. The Mk-20 contains Mk-118 anti-armor submunitions. Each submunition uses a shaped-charged warhead to defeat armor. It is not a high explosive or fragmentation submunition that would have an appreciable blast radius per submunition. Given this, a direct hit is required with a Mk-118 except for lightly protected targets.

 

Until we add hard-wired munition dispense altitudes to match the DDI settings, it is very important that you set the HT value to 1500. It’s also best to release at a dive angle between 25 and 30 degrees and at an altitude of around 2,500 ft AGL.

 

This is the most important to know. Setting VT doesn't set the HoB as that is set on the CBU itself which just isn't implemented yet. And they dont deliver munitions with a blast radius.

 

And the change definately is very noticable. I usually drop them on Shilkas and Strelas in my training & testing maps and before the update, both needed 3 direct hits of those Mk 118s to get killed, now just one single it is totally sufficient. I can clearly imagine dropping them on a bunch of targets now actually does kill a good amount of them even with a single CBU. Just didn't try it yet

 

Thanks for changing this, finally

 

Now this just has to be taken over to the CBU-99 as well since I've read that it didn't change apparently even though it should as it drops the same Mk 118 bomblets. If it has been changed as well as opposed to what I've read, just disregard this statement

[NineLine]

This is the most important to know. Setting VT doesn't set the HoB as that is set on the CBU itself which just isn't implemented yet. And they dont deliver munitions with a blast radius.

 

And the change definately is very noticable. I usually drop them on Shilkas and Strelas in my training & testing maps and before the update, both needed 3 direct hits of those Mk 118s to get killed, now just one single it is totally sufficient. I can clearly imagine dropping them on a bunch of targets now actually does kill a good amount of them even with a single CBU. Just didn't try it yet

 

Thanks for changing this, finally

 

Now this just has to be taken over to the CBU-99 as well since I've read that it didn't change apparently even though it should as it drops the same Mk 118 bomblets. If it has been changed as well as opposed to what I've read, just disregard this statement

 

You should see improvements in the CBU-99 as well.

[TheKardinal]

Very happy to see that the Mk20 rockeye has been tweaked. I look forward to trying them out! Looks like dropping them the right way is important and to remember that the sub munitions have a neglible blast radius.

[Sandman1330]

I don't mean to be difficult, but I still don't see it.

 

I just tried a delivery of 4 x MK20 in pairs (Qty 2 Mult 2 with 2 presses of the pickle to manually space out the pairs). 30 degree dive angle, dropped at 2500AGL, HOF at 1500. Target was 8 tightly clustered BTR-80s.

 

Destroyed one of them, the rest were undamaged.

 

Went around for another pass, same profile, same results - 1 destroyed.

 

I think those that are hit actually take realistic damage now, but it seems like they just are not hitting, rather they land all around the targets.

 

Unfortunately, the track file corrupted when I tried to play it back, so I can't show it here. Maybe I'll try again to get a decent track file....

[NineLine]

If you can share the mission and if I can find the time I can give it a run and see what I can do.

[NineLine]

Here is what I whipped up really quick, although I came in a little lower and I didn't manually pickle the pairs, I set them to drop in pairs.

 

[Sandman1330]

Jeez, that’s awesome. I don’t see anything close to that level of effect.

 

I haven’t been back on yet, but let me do some more testing. One thing I did notice is your targets are more tightly packed than mine, which are still close together by battlefield standards but more dispersed than yours.

 

I’ll be back... ;)

[NineLine]

Yeah, you weren't specific, so I winged it :) Its why I let the Hornet pickle the pairs too, needed to be pretty tight, as fast as you are moving, then manually pickling, you could spread the submunitions out pretty far.

[Cik]

spread out or not doesn't seem to matter that much. i've dropped against targets that are much more dispersed than that and still achieved 100% kill rate.

 

 

it seems like as long as you are:

 

 

in the footprint of the bomb [X]

are light armor [X]

 

 

 

you are dead.

[Sandman1330]

OK, so here's a track I put together. It has groups of BTR-80s with various formations and dispersion.

 

From analyzing the track myself, I think what is deceiving is the actual area of coverage. In each attack, you can clearly see the area of the ground that is hit by the bomblets (assuming each little animated dust "poof" is a bomblet strike). In most cases, the entire formation is covered by this dispersal pattern.

 

However, the only vehicles that take damage or are destroyed are those very close to the center of the pattern. Therefore, I'm led to conclude that the actual dispersal area of the bomblets is much smaller than the animation would imply. I do understand that the concentration would be higher near the center than the outside, but we should still be seeing strikes near the outside of the pattern.

 

It now seems to me like it's not an issue with the strength of the bomblets, but rather with the dispersion of the bomblets. They don't seem to disperse as much as they should, to the point where they are only marginally more effective than a single large bomb (MK83 or MK84)

 

Track attached, made on the latest (as of today) open beta:

 

PS: I appreciate the positive feedback and genuine desire to look at this, rather than dismissing it outright.

rockeye test.trk

[Sandman1330]

Anyone have a chance to look at the track?

[Sandman1330]

I see this is going nowhere.

 

I've analyzed my flight with tacview, and it appears that he MK20s don't split into individual bomblets, but at the point of split, they still only show as one bomb (which could explain why I'm only getting hits near the center). I'm new to Tacview, but is this how they always show? Or have I not set something up correctly in the cockpit?

 

Edit: OK, so I did some trials with the A10C and CBU87, and they show up the same way in Tacview. However, even the CBU87 had significantly more punch than the MK20 against the same targets.

 

One thing I've noticed is my MK20s are bursting at 300ft, even when set to 1500 in the aircraft (I know this isn't functional yet in the F/A-18C). This is the case regardless of whether I drop them from the F/A-18C or the AV8B. Interestingly, CBU87/97 from the A-10C are bursting at 500-600ft, even when set to 1500 in the DSMS. Could this low dispersal height be the cause of the small damage pattern?

Edited October 29, 2018 by Sandman1330

[EagleEye]

Will have a look on that trk file the next time I run DCS (maybe tomorrow). I used the MK20 in the last play sessions and wondered a bit why they are not that effectiv I thought they would be and like Wags video showed. I´m using the Open Beta.

[EagleEye]

Hi Sandman, tried your track file yesterday and to me all your settings are correct and I see what you are meaning and it`s the same I observed on the last flights. All vehicles have to stay very very close to each other, like in Wags and NineLines videos. And if the impact point is a bit outside the target the bomb have no effect.

Dispersion seems to small for me to but I´m not an weapon expert.