Request official flight model update

[JayBird]

What flare? You don't flare in the Hornet. Ever.

 

You flare the hornet when landing on an airfield when NOT practicing an FCLP

[MasterZelgadis]

Where do you get that bug is confirmed? It was reported to the devs by a tester. That's far from confirmation.

[Svend_Dellepude]

You flare the hornet when landing on an airfield when NOT practicing an FCLP

 

https://youtu.be/hQXDOxo0mF8?t=864

[S]

Here's my concern:

 

Once the PFM is tuned to ED's best capabilities, it's been verified by SMEs and it's considered accurate and realistic, are we (as virtual armchair pilots) able stop nagging and question its validity and finally accept it for what it is and start training on it to master it, or will we - due to our lack of expertise/training/understanding continue to ask for the PFM to be changed until we're happy (even though the PFM ends up less than stellar or less than accurate)?

 

And when will we (defined as above) know and accept that the PFM is "done"?

 

I think it's really hard for ED to find the right stopping point here for everyone to be happy.

 

I think that there are certain aspects of the physics involved in flight that just need to be right in order to call something 'done' in the case of a simulated aircraft. Ground effect is one of those things. When you get close to the ground in a real plane, you start riding a 'cushion' of air that does the exact opposite of the 'pull you in' thing that we experience now. Also, a skilled aviator knows to sit in ground effect while building airspeed...

 

 

Cheers!

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Also, a skilled aviator knows to sit in ground effect while building airspeed...

 

No they don't. If you don't have enough airspeed to climb out of ground effect you rotated too early.

[bbrz]

If you don't have enough airspeed to climb out of ground effect you rotated too early.

That's incorrect. I've flown a certain 19seat turboprop which has to accelerate in ground effect in the engine failure case.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Fair enough, but that'll be an exception rather than the rule.

[Ronin14]

That's absolute nonsense. You are apparently simply unable to fly at e.g. 500kts and below 30ft.

 

Sorry, yes you can you need to practice. I regularly dive under cables on the PG map.

[S]

Fair enough, but that'll be an exception rather than the rule.

 

Just because it isn't 'standard practice' doesn't mean it's not used. Watch the Red Bull Air Race pilots on standing start races - they do it. In other combat sims that have ground effect modeled, I used to use GE to get some distance when I was being chased by a less skilled opponent in the same model aircraft.

 

 

Cheers!

[Gierasimov]

You don't flare...

 

You flare the hornet when landing on an airfield when NOT practicing an FCLP

 

Well, as flared landing with 90° crosswind component over 30 knots is prohibited, and there is also flared landing limitation in asymmetric load due to the landing gear construction. I would say you simply don't flare, ever. It works in DCS as well as in real life but I have only discussed this with Swiss pilots at an airshow, so what do I know about the Navy Hornet we have in the sim :)? Wags said in his tutorial, "don't flare" :) and he is the product manager for Hornet so I believe he is conveying the info that is checked.

 

Using a flared minimum descent rate landing, the WOW switch may not actuate immediately. In this case, the throttles cannot be reduced to ground idle and may be inadvertently left in the flight idle position, thereby reducing the deceleration rate and extending the length of the landing rollout.

[BuzzU]

I land the same way on an airfield as I do on a carrier. No flare.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

...I would say you simply don't flare, ever...

 

...Using a flared minimum descent rate landing, the WOW switch may not actuate immediately. In this case, the throttles cannot be reduced to ground idle and may be inadvertently left in the flight idle position, thereby reducing the deceleration rate and extending the length of the landing rollout.

 

That's a good reason for not flaring and I expect most landings are indeed done this way, but it's not the whole story. Max landing weight for field and carrier is the same at 33,000lbs, but you can land at 39,000lbs at the field if you flare. So, there are exceptions to the never flare rule.

[aaron886]

Navy pilots don't really flare in the traditional sense. Ashore, Navy pilots may reduce descent rate on touchdown in certain conditions to reduce wear on the jet or certain stores, but it's not a flare like an airliner flare. The examples above are good, just realize that the Hornet won't reward your 10 fpm touchdown descent rate. The big trailing link gear are made to soak up a lot of impact and don't like soft touchdowns, especially with crosswind in play. More realistically, you might just reduce the descent rate from say, 1000 fpm to 500 fpm.

[BuzzU]

That's a good reason for not flaring and I expect most landings are indeed done this way, but it's not the whole story. Max landing weight for field and carrier is the same at 33,000lbs, but you can land at 39,000lbs at the field if you flare. So, there are exceptions to the never flare rule.

 

 

Nobody will yell at you if you dump the fuel and stores before landing. ;)

[Gierasimov]

Just make sure...

 

Nobody will yell at you if you dump the fuel and stores before landing. ;)

I guess its true in two cases:

 

1. Emergency

2. dumping armed stores over the intended target :)

[Wags]

The engineer assigned to the FM is currently hard at work on the JHMCS and HARM. Once those tasks are complete, he'll revisit remaining FM issues.

 

Thanks!

 

Matt and/or Developers,

 

I really appreciate and enjoy your update videos, however, I have not seen any official comments regarding the Hornet flight model. Will you please provide an update on the current flight model status? Is the flight model considered complete at this time, or are there still outstanding issues that are being worked on?

 

Since the early access release, there have been numerous posts and speculation in the F-18 Forum regarding problems/issues with the flight model from customers. I have also seen occasional responses from SME's indicating that they feel the flight model is off, and that the Developers are aware of issues with the flight model.

 

The June 13, 2018 patch update contained this fix - "Fixed the behavior of the aircraft when flaps extended from the AUTO to HALF/FULL positions." However, this doesn't really explain what exactly was changed, or what the perceived problem was prior to the fix.

 

Obviously, the flight model is the most fundamental "feature" of the DCS F-18, so it is a bit curious that there has not been any official comment or update on where things stand.

 

Based on the number of flight model posts in the forums, I bet a lot of your customers would appreciate an update and in-depth discussion of the flight model from official Eagle Dynamics sources.

 

Thank you.

[Chops]

The engineer assigned to the FM is currently hard at work on the JHMCS and HARM. Once those tasks are complete, he'll revisit remaining FM issues.

 

Thanks!

 

 

Thank you very much Matt!

[Wrench]

All Hail Wags!

That said, I'd like to see detailed FM information added to the changelogs in future if practicable. (famous last words...)

[DGC338]

Matt could you possibly outline what the remaining FM issues are? Thank you.

[BigMac]

Good to hear that ED have now confirmed a review of "remaining FM issues", hopefully any adjustments will be implemented this year and hopefully those mentioned by LEX and AEW are assessed. There is the possibility of the previously mentioned fact that as it's a sim, the FM is as good as it's going to get which is perfectly understandable and if so, I hope ED state this and put the cat to bed. Wonder when they expect the F/A-18C to come out of early access/beta, there's a strong competitor on the way.

Edited October 12, 2018 by BigMac

[WildBillKelsoe]

 

The June 13, 2018 patch update contained this fix - "Fixed the behavior of the aircraft when flaps extended from the AUTO to HALF/FULL positions." However, this doesn't really explain what exactly was changed, or what the perceived problem was prior to the fix.

 

The flaps extension caused excessive pitching nose down moments that the plane felt like its dropping like a brick and not transitioning when half was extended, full or zero to full. ED corrected that behaviour.

[Mule]

Good to hear that ED have now confirmed a review of "remaining FM issues", hopefully any adjustments will be implemented this year and hopefully those mentioned by LEX and AEW are assessed. There is the possibility of the previously mentioned fact that as it's a sim, the FM is as good as it's going to get which is perfectly understandable and if so, I hope ED state this and put the cat to bed. Wonder when they expect the F/A-18C to come out of early access/beta, there's a strong competitor on the way.

 

Hey BigMac have you listened to

It's an interview with Matt by a real former, Hornet fighter pilot. They have a great discussion regarding flight model and more importantly, and something I wasn't aware of is the feedback the Hornet gives to the stick regarding AOA and all sorts of stuff. If you have any concerns, or at least are interested in this aspect of the simulation, which you seem to be it is well worth a listen.

 

A real eye opener.

 

:thumbup:

Edited October 13, 2018 by Mule

[Guest Guest]

One of the guys in my virtual squadron said that the flight model in the current Hornet build was reverted back to the old one. I'm not sure what he means by old flight model I assume the one before it was updated in late August or early September.

 

I'm curious if this is accurate, if the flight model was reverted and why it would have been if it was. My big assumption as to the reason it was reverted is because whenever us Hornet guys get something nice that makes the Hornet better the galgamecks that are the rest of DCS players get up in arms about it and complain to the devs so the Hornet gets nerfed or you wind up not being able to use all of its capabilities in servers.

 

I took November off from DCS, but I thought the flight model felt a little different than what I remember from October.

[Kazius]

My question is, when I lift off, I pull in the gear and then set flaps normal and as soon as I set flaps normal the plane pitches upwards. I though flaps were to provide lift. Always assumed the plane would want to settle as soon as flaps are set to normal.

[Eaglewings]

My question is, when I lift off, I pull in the gear and then set flaps normal and as soon as I set flaps normal the plane pitches upwards. I though flaps were to provide lift. Always assumed the plane would want to settle as soon as flaps are set to normal.

Not an authority on aero dynamics physics but from from the little I know, you may want to factor in the fact that your speed would be at this time increasing and naturally, high thrust would create lift even without flaps being deployed.

I want to assume you pitched up during takeoff, you would need to pitch the aircraft down with your control stick to maintain a 1g stable flight that the Hornet seeks.

 

True, flaps are to provide lift during low takeoff and landing speeds to help compensate for the low thrust at this periods, but with the pitch up commanded during takeoff and probably an after burner thrust, lift will continue with the wings up to an angle the wings will no longer produce lift.

 

I could be proven wrong here by expert in my analysis here.

 

However, there is no doubt the current FM needs some good tweaking.