AGM-65E and Laser Range Problems

[Deano87]

I've made this video to describe the issue. Yes I made it a while ago, I just forgot to post it here :doh:

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by Deano87

[jojo]

Thank you. So the problem is DCS World laser beam simulation.

[NineLine]

Hey guys, everything I am seeing says that the laser degrades at a certain range to the point the Mavericks would not properly lock, is it possible you are buddy lasing too far out? 8.5nm seems like the limit, maybe even too much depending on conditions. If you have any better data on that, feel free to let me know.

[Shadow_1stVFW]

Hey guys, everything I am seeing says that the laser degrades at a certain range to the point the Mavericks would not properly lock, is it possible you are buddy lasing too far out? 8.5nm seems like the limit, maybe even too much depending on conditions. If you have any better data on that, feel free to let me know.

 

I understand that, but the issue is currently that spot that the laser degrades at is tracked by weapons. Meaning if you're guiding a maverick and get 500 feet further than the edge of useable laser the maverick will chase the end of the beam.

 

That doesn't work conceptually because there is nothing for the laser to reflect off to be tracked. If 8.something miles is as far as you can get a lock and track off of, fine. But the weapons shouldn't be chasing the arbitrary "tip" of the laser.

[Dr.SquirrelBoy12]

The issue is that the AGM-65E (and all other laser guided weapons) will lock onto the tip of the laser at ~ 8 miles instead of the point the laser intersects with the ground or target. If you dont want to watch the video linked in the thread you can look at this image I made.

 

I had the laser aimed at the target and got a lock but instead of tracking on the target the missile tracked to the end of the 8 mile laser beam.

 

 

Here you can see the target the missile should have been moving towards and how much of an angle off the missile ended up.

 

 

The issue isnt that we aren't able to lock the target beyond the range of the laser, the issue is that we are getting a false lock on the end of the laser beam 8 miles from the emitter.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Dr.SquirrelBoy12

[Cornelius]

I've made this video to describe the issue. Yes I made it a while ago, I just forgot to post it here :doh:

 

YOUTUBE

 

 

One thing I don't get:

In both occasions you're firing the LMAV without "INRNG" indication on the HUD. And then I searched the pocket guide about the term and found 0. Only chucks Harrier Guide mentions it. So what's it all about?

[Ramsay]

One thing I don't get:

In both occasions you're firing the LMAV without "INRNG" indication on the HUD. And then I searched the pocket guide about the term and found 0. Only chucks Harrier Guide mentions it. So what's it all about?

The AV-8 Tactical Manual Vol 1 (A1-AV8BB-TAC-000) section dealing with the AGM-65F, describes how the "IN RNG" HUD cue appears when a target is designated and a launch solution exists.

 

Ranging information is based on IRMV gimbal angles and best available aircraft altitude when in IRMV track mode.

[Cornelius]

So he is firing without launch solution and wondering why it doesn't work?

[Ramsay]

So he is firing without launch solution and wondering why it doesn't work?

 

The video is made to make the problem easy to understand. You can fire with the "IN RGN" cue and valid launch solution but none of that matters if the lasing aircraft (perhaps a buddy lase) flys more than ~8 nm from the target.

 

Dr.SquirrelBoy12's above post explains the issue - it's been a problem for A-10C's with LGB's inexplicably missing their lased target on occasions. The Harrier's tracking LST just made it easier to identify/confirm it as a TGP laser issue, rather than a weapon issue (seeker lost track, etc.).

Edited November 8, 2018 by Ramsay

[Cornelius]

O.K. Thanks for the clarification, Ramsay.

I myself have been struggling with the use of TPOD Laser in combination with the AGM65E. Several missed shots where Maverick flies somewhere else and no idea what I'm doing wrong. Didn't even think there might be a bug.

 

Thank you Deano87 & Dr.SquirrelBoy12 for bringing this up :thumbup:

Edited November 8, 2018 by Cornelius

[NineLine]

So if a Lased target is beyond the range of the laser, then it probably shouldn't lock at all. I am not sure how simulated the laser is in DCS, it should be affected by atmospheric conditions, etc. But I am not sure its that in depth.

 

Will look into it further.

[Shadow_1stVFW]

So if a Lased target is beyond the range of the laser, then it probably shouldn't lock at all. I am not sure how simulated the laser is in DCS, it should be affected by atmospheric conditions, etc. But I am not sure its that in depth.

 

Will look into it further.

 

Right, think of the laser like a laser pointer. If you are in range, the laser shoots out and hits the target you want. If it's cloudy or conditions otherwise do not permit, the laser is attenuated before the object, there is no spot where the laser reflects off. You don't see the laser spot. Or if it's just too far away maybe you could technically still see the spot, but it's too faint to be detected.

 

Thanks for looking into it.

[FSKRipper]

Thanks for looking it up Nineline.

 

I understood what the problem of this thread is, just an understanding question for you guys out there: When the Laser Range is limited and the Mav is guided by the reflection from the target than the Harrier should not be able to get a lock at all bevor entering the 8,5 nm distance right (I know, maybe only the DCS value)?

 

 

This would mean only if AFAC and Shooter are both within 8,5nm of the target we should get a valid target lock?

 

EDIT: Thanks Shadow, I think that was already the answer

[Cornelius]

Does anybody have Information about the maximum range of the AN/AAQ-28 Laser Designator?

[FSKRipper]

I suppose nobody will or can't tell you without breaking forum rules or getting a night visit by Homeland Security. I PM'd you a link which may get you an idea :music_whistling:

Edited November 8, 2018 by FSKRipper

[Cornelius]

I suppose nobody will or can't tell you without breaking forum rules or getting a night visit by Homeland Security. I PM'd you a link which may get you an idea :music_whistling:

 

o.k. :lol:

 

Edit:

I just ask, because 8nm seem a little bit small to me

Edited November 8, 2018 by Cornelius

[Dr.SquirrelBoy12]

So if a Lased target is beyond the range of the laser, then it probably shouldn't lock at all. I am not sure how simulated the laser is in DCS, it should be affected by atmospheric conditions, etc. But I am not sure its that in depth.

 

Will look into it further.

 

Yes this is how it should work.

 

The laser should really go to wherever the JTAC or TPOD is aiming, and then there should be a value called intensity that depends on distance from the laser emitter to the target.

 

That should determine how likely a lock is. The value should be affected by time of day and weather etc too.

 

That is how I would fix it, instead of having the laser coded to be wherever the line from where the TPod is looking intercepts the ground or 8 miles from the TPod as it seems it is now.

[Rolds]

I don't know if anyone has brought this up yet but I find that static objects pop into view at a distance of about 9 miles despite the draw distance for other units like ground units being much further. The static object draw distance I find is similar to the max laser length, possibly there is a connection?

 

Edit- applies to some static objects, mostly structures, the oil tank for sure.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Rolds

[Budabacon]

Sensors / EW:

- AN/AAQ-28 [Laser Designator] - Laser Designator, Laser Target Designator & Ranger (LTD/R), Max range: 27.8

km

- AN/AAQ-28 [FLIR] - Infrared, Infrared, Attack FLIR, Max range: 55.6 km

- AN/AAQ-28 [FLIR, Air-to-Air Tracking] - Infrared, Infrared, Navigation / Attack FLIR & Air-to-Air Tracking, Max

range: 185.2 km

[al531246]

Sensors / EW:

- AN/AAQ-28 [Laser Designator] - Laser Designator, Laser Target Designator & Ranger (LTD/R), Max range: 27.8 km

 

That's pretty consistent with the data I've found as well. The laser range depends a lot on conditions and time of day but that figure is pretty good average.

[thehillman215]

@NineLine - is the 8.5nm laser designator beam length limitation in DCS something that can be updated to allow for longer lasing distances, atmospheric conditions permitting?