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Target Software Problem


twells555

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Hi All,

 

I use the TM Warthog with a target software script to program it. I use a script, not the gui. I am having a problem with buttons I have scripted losing thier binding after loading the script, starting a mission, and having the buttons initially working. Not all the buttons lose thier binding, just some of them and it seems almost at random. Pausing the mission and re-loading the script solves the problem for a while, but then it repeats. (Very annoying, and of course I don't notice a button has lost its binding until the worst possible time...).

 

So I am wondering if there are any longtime (I'm fairly new) Warthog/Target users who have experienced and solved this problem, or better yet, if there is an alternative to the target software which I could try? Or even an acknowledgement that I'm not losing my mind would be something!

I prefer not to use the dcs profile if possible because I really like all the programming options coding the script provides, which you can't do with the dcs game profile method. But it is really getting annoying...

 

Thanks

tim

Fargo

I9-9900, GTX1080Ti,32GRam,Pimax 5k+, HP Reverb, TM WartHog, MTG Pedals

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Hey Tim. Sorry bud. You're losing your mind! Lol. I use script too and never had the problem you're describing. When it does happen, can you pause the game, go into the script editor, and use the tester to see if the keys are being triggered in the script?

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Can you share the script? Next time it happens try running Start>Run>joy.cpl and see how the device behaves as seen by Windows. This will see if it's a DCS problem or a device-Windows problem.

 

 

Some-but-not-all-button failure is very strange. It's probably a script or even partial electrical fault of the controller.

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I was having the same sort of issue. My stick was dying mid stream. I would start the script, then DCS, and get into mission and sometimes just lose button functions. Sometimes axis as well but definitely button functions.

My problem was with the stick.

 

  • Stick showed up in "Devices and Printer" but did not have any function when testing settings.
  • USB drivers I think were the culprit in this case. My board is old and no new drivers available. Put in a new PCIE USB Board. So update or uninstall/reinstall drivers.
  • Also, as long as you have Stick and Throttle present in "Devices and Printers" try to reinstall Firmware.

That seemed to work for me.

 

 

 

Checking USB events showed I had an error "Device no migrated"

I think it is related to Windows update trying to replace old driver with new generic and it don't match. Go figure.

 

I hope this helps

Good Luck


Edited by SGT Coyle

Night Ops in the Harrier

IYAOYAS


 
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Echoing some comments above, but just be sure.....

 

Did the TARGET script exit on it's own? I mean, did you re-run (press stop and then run) the TARGET script, or did it exit on it's own, and you are in fact just running it again? I have seen an issue in DCS (see below) where it causes all USB gaming devices to reset. This unloads the TARGET script as well as unloading other loaded gaming software profiles like my Saitek Profile for my Throttle Quadrant.

 

If the TARGET script shuts down due to this issue, it may appear only some axis or buttons stopped working but in reality, the TARGET device (Thrustmaster Combined) will disappear, and DCS just switches back to the default setup for a Warthog when not using TARGET. Remember, when TARGET runs a script, it removes the stand alone Warthog Throttle and Joystick and replaces them with a new device called Thrustmaster Combined. Hence DCS will use only Thrustmaster Conbined, or the separate Joystick and Throttle, but not both at the same time. This prevents conflicts.

 

Having just some of the _buttons_ stop working is very odd as they should all either work, or fail together - unless there is a hardware issue with your Warthog. However, if the TARGET script shut down, I can completely see how some of the axis would appear to stop working (axis you programmed specifically in TARGET) because DCS would just default back to the original Warthog default axis configuration if you didn't go out of your way to clear that config.

 

If the above is not the problem.... Another test is to run TARGET as admin - right click on the TARGET Script Editor icon and select "Run as Administrator". This will run the back ground TARGET service as admin and it may resolve some issues. This shouldn't normally be required, but try it and see if the issue goes away.

 

 

 

Regarding the issue of TARGET or other Gaming Device Profiles unloading while in DCS...

 

If this sounds like the issue you are having, read on. Otherwise, sorry for the long post.

 

DCS has a problem where sometimes a USB reset occurs, and DCS will reinitialize all USB gaming devices. It is related to a Windows issue with USB

power down modes that started 3 years ago when ED added the ability to hot swap gaming controllers. But it hasn't been fixed by ED or Microsoft (it is a problem with both).

 

You'll know it happened because you'll get a bunch of messages in the upper right corner of the screen saying devices have disappeared, followed by messages saying devices have been found. You didn't say anything about such messages, so maybe this isn't the issue you are having.

 

When I encounter this issue, it often causes my TARGET script to stop running, as well as a similar issue with other USB controllers, like it unloads my Logitech/Saitek Gaming Profile setup for my Saitek Throttle Quadrants. I can to reload the Logiteh profile, or press RUN in my TARGET Script Editor, and everything works in DCS again without having to exit DCS.

 

I used to have this occur ever 5 to 15 minutes in game. I reinstalled a fresh install of Windows and it went away - except it sometimes happens when starting a multi-player mission. But only in the first few minutes after starting the mission. It seems to be an issue with overloading the computer, or DCS gets over loaded, and it happens. My virus checker, for example caused the issue regularly even on my newly re-installed system. I don't use that virus checker anymore - problem solved. So re-installing Windows did not solve the issue directly. Keeping my Windows system unburdened by software that might slow it down unexpectedly and cause a DirectX or USB re-init did. My computer isn't slow. Like any computer, overload it enough and sometimes you can cause things to time out or fail momentarily.

 

Ultimately, though, this appears to be an issue with how DCS handles DirectX resets, or how it handles momentary disappearances of USB devices, which can occur due to how Windows handles power down modes on USB devices (which causes USB devices to disappear for a moment). Hence why this is a Windows and a DCS issue.

 

This has been discussed significantly in other ED forums. Some have referred to it as the issue where their TrackIR seems to reset because they get a TrackIR has disappeared message followed by TrackIR has reappeared message.

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Wow! All good stuff.

About the ED messages. When I had my problem I got no messages saying anything had been disconnected. I know what you mean. If you loose a device, target will shut down, but in my case anyway it didn't. The joy stick, the device I had issue with, was still recognized by windows, hence still connected, target still running, DCS still thinks it's there, but of course the buttons don't work.

So with the current controls debacle right now I haven't been able to go on any extended DCS flight to see if in fact it is fixed.

 

 

 

So anyway good luck to the OP.

Night Ops in the Harrier

IYAOYAS


 
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Ya, if you aren't seeing the game controller messages in the upper right corner (disconnects and reconnects) then this is a new one to me.

 

twells555, are you seeing the messages, or is your situation more like SGT_Coyle's situation?

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Thanks very much for all the suggestions, I will try them all and report back if I find anything. I see the connect messages in the top right when I start the script, never any disconnect messages. Fyi, the script is a slightly modified script written by Noid which I dl from this site. Worked fine for a long time, issues just started recently. One odd thing I did notice, it seems like before once I loaded the script, I would have the tm combined profile, my mfg rudder pedal profile, and the keyboard loaded when I checked in game. Now I have the combined, keyboard, and rudders profiles...but also still have the individual throttle and stick profiles even though the target script is loaded...

Fargo

I9-9900, GTX1080Ti,32GRam,Pimax 5k+, HP Reverb, TM WartHog, MTG Pedals

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Thanks very much for all the suggestions, I will try them all and report back if I find anything. I see the connect messages in the top right when I start the script, never any disconnect messages. Fyi, the script is a slightly modified script written by Noid which I dl from this site. Worked fine for a long time, issues just started recently. One odd thing I did notice, it seems like before once I loaded the script, I would have the tm combined profile, my mfg rudder pedal profile, and the keyboard loaded when I checked in game. Now I have the combined, keyboard, and rudders profiles...but also still have the individual throttle and stick profiles even though the target script is loaded...

Step # 1

 

Does it happen with any other script?

 

Check this>>>>>I went to get a pic of the save power sleep mode for hid devices to show how to turn it off and found windows had turned them all back on.

Check out the pic. Apparently the last windows update changed it back.

I will now uncheck all those allow to save power boxes for usb hid devices.<<important

UNCHECK those boxes.

 

I would uninstall Target and the TM Drivers and unplug them.

 

Boot up. Reinstall the latest drivers plugging in the tm devices when it says to.

 

Re-install the latest Target software (new version this summer).

 

If you plug in and unplug hid devices such as other controllers or cams , it can mess with device ordering. I leave everything I use on my gaming machine plugged in.

 

As an example, If I unplug my cam, over a reboot it will reorder things.

 

It is a rare issue amoung users.

 

I have noticed static electricity from my hand to my throttle can disconnect momentarily enough to mess things up as well. Nothing gets to touch the carpet now.

 

Thrustmaster. A Love/Hate relationship. ;)

1089700723_usbsleep.thumb.jpg.5a59eb7efacc1683d488aa4f44a8350c.jpg

Win 10 pro 64 bit. Intel i7 4790 4 Ghz running at 4.6. Asus z97 pro wifi main board, 32 gig 2400 ddr3 gold ram, 50 inch 4K UHD and HDR TV for monitor. H80 cpu cooler. 8 other cooling fans in full tower server case. Soundblaster ZX sound card. EVGA 1080 TI FTW3. TM Hotas Wartog. TM T.16000M MFG Crosswinds Pedals. Trackir 5.

"Everyone should fly a Spitfire at least once" John S. Blyth

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Thankyou DeepDrummer...

 

I haven't tried any other scripts recently, the only one I have is the noid script right now. But I have tried other scripts in the past, including other variants of the noid script...without this issue. This just started a few weeks back....and even before that I was running the same script and not seeing the issue...As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, it seems I first started noticing this issue shortly after switching over from saitek rudder pedals to mfg's...which did require usb unplugging and plugging...and running the mfg software. Hmmm....

 

I did uninstall and reinstall the target software with the latest to see if there is a difference. Too early to tell yet, I've been kind of busy. But does that also uninstall the drivers as well or is that done separately somewhere else? (I'm a Mac, Linux guy....only go to the dark side to run DCS and don't know all that much about it anymore....my last was Xp :-), windows 10 is a mystery...

I'll also check those boxes you mention, didn't know anything about that.

 

One thing I did notice on a quick test after reinstalling target, inside the game I no longer see the individual profiles for the throttle and stick along with the combined profile...I only see the combined, rudder pedals, and keyboard profiles so I'm hoping that cleans things up. I'm going to check those checkboxes you mentioned and make some time to doing some flying today and see if anything good has happened.

 

Love-Hate with target...LOL...I agree completely. I was really hoping someone would suggest an alternative I could try. I thought I saw something a while back before I started having script issues but didn't try it cuz I didn't need it...should have made a note.

tim

Fargo

I9-9900, GTX1080Ti,32GRam,Pimax 5k+, HP Reverb, TM WartHog, MTG Pedals

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Uninstalling TARGET doesn't affect the Warthog Drivers. That is a different installer. I'm not sure if the Warthog drivers can be uninstalled with add/remove programs (they are drivers, not an application). But if you disconnect the Warthog throttle and stick, reboot, then re-install the latest drivers, it should overwrite what ever is on your machine. Follow the install instructions for re-connecting your devices. Or just install the drivers again, reboot, and then reconnect your devices after reboot if you want to be sure. This isn't necessary in Windows 10, but never hurts.

 

For re-installing TARGET, it is just an application. But it does install a Windows Service (background process). So if you really want to make sure your TARGET install is clean, uninstall, reboot, then re-install. This should make sure the TARGET service is shut down and gone when you re-install. Again this shouldn't be necessary, but won't hurt.

 

As for the original issue of some buttons losing their binding, next time it happens, leave DCS running (pause or not doesn't matter), and alt-tab out to the TARGET Scripting app. Then use the tester programs (the keyboard tester, and the game controller tester loaded by clicking on the icons at the top of the TARGET scripting window) to see if your target script has failed overall, or if it is just in DCS. I would be really curious to see if the buttons that lost their binding are still working when viewed using the TARGET testing programs.

 

And, a question... Are the buttons that lost their binding programmed to press keyboard keys, or are they programmed as DirectX buttons? If you are using both, but only DX buttons, or keyboard buttons lose their bindings, that is telling of course.

 

 

One odd thing I did notice, it seems like before once I loaded the script, I would have the tm combined profile, my mfg rudder pedal profile, and the keyboard loaded when I checked in game. Now I have the combined, keyboard, and rudders profiles...but also still have the individual throttle and stick profiles even though the target script is loaded...

 

I have seen that happen on occasion. Not lately, though. Keep it in mind to see if this happening coincides with the lost bindings, but otherwise, I wouldn't worry about. Well, except that if you see both the Thrustmaster Combined and the stand alone Warthog Throttle and Joystick at the same time in DCS, just make sure the stand alone devices are not assigned to anything in DCS. Click on any item in the column for the Warthog Throttle, for example, and select "clear category" (or what ever the clear button is) at the top if the screen for setting up controllers. Do the same for the Joystick. That will remove all the bindings for the stand alone device. Then even if both stand alone and Thrustmaster Combined show up, the stand alone devices won't mess things up.

 

While you are at it, make sure none of your other devices are inappropriately configured to share controls. For example, if you have a Saitek Throttle Quadrant, do the "clear category" thing on it as well to make sure none of its axes are assigned to something you are using the Thrustmaster for. Then assign the Saitek as needed manually.

 

But to be clear, I don't think any of the above comments on both devices showing up is directly the cause of your troubles. Just good practice to reduce the variables.

 

And of course, if the trouble started when you changed your pedals, absolutely change back to the old pedals first to see if the problem goes away.

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Got some time to fly this weekend and tried a few of your suggestions...Having the throttle and stick profiles along with the combined seems to have righted itself...perhaps with the last dcs update? I now have just a keyboard, combined, mfg, and mouse profiles as it had been b4. Doesn't seem to have changed anything...some flights seem to go real well, others not so much...even though I never shut down the box or reboot windows. And I no longer allow Windoze auto updating....

The problem seems to be with Dcs....per your suggestion I brought up the event tester when I had lost some button bindings. Both stick and throttle registered the proper key clicks on the tester without fail. Stopping and restarting the script gets the functions back....sometimes for the rest of the flight, sometimes just for a while. Being fairly new to dcs, I'm not sure where that leaves me. Oh, and the buttons are keyboard presses, not DX buttons...and I believe the script used both. Also, when it occurs, pressing corresponding keyboard keys does not register in Dcs either....

Fargo

I9-9900, GTX1080Ti,32GRam,Pimax 5k+, HP Reverb, TM WartHog, MTG Pedals

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Also, when it occurs, pressing corresponding keyboard keys does not register in Dcs either....

 

OK, that's the kind of confirmation I was looking for. So it is a DCS issue unrelated to TARGET, correct? Or let me say that differently. It sounds like you are saying that DCS has troubles seeing keyboard presses sometimes. So narrow it down to that. Try flying without TARGET, and using the joystick/throttle just as DirectX devices as a test, or even fly just using the keyboard with your game controllers disconnected. See if the keyboard keys stop working.

 

I suggest this only to confirm that the TARGET keyboard emulator or the game controllers aren't causing any issues. If you still see keyboard issues, then you might need to get more drastic like resetting all keyboard controls back to default, or maybe removing and re-installing DCS.

 

In all cases, keep the TARGET event tester running in the background. You can create an icon on your desktop just for the TARGET Event Tester and run it without running TARGET. When ever the keyboard seems to stop working (whether it is due to the TARGET script pressing keys, or the keyboard), immediately go to the event tester and see if it shows the key presses. If it does, but DCS isn't recognizing the key presses, then yes, that seems to be proof that it is entirely a DCS issue. But regardless, it is an uncommon issue as I've heard nobody have anything of the sort occur.

 

DCS recently messed with the default controller configs which caused issues for people. The issue you are seeing doesn't seem related, but maybe in some obscure way, it is.

 

Sorry, I don't think I'm offering much help here.

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On the contrary, you have been a lot of help. Thank you. I think since, as you say ,it seems to be a problem that only I have, which was one of the things I was hoping to find out by posting the issue, the best thing for me to do at this point is a complete reinstall of dcs since it doesn't seem to be my hardware...or maybe just dl the release version and see how that works. I'm fine with that, and very glad it doesn't seem to be the expensive hardware I'm using.

tim

Fargo

I9-9900, GTX1080Ti,32GRam,Pimax 5k+, HP Reverb, TM WartHog, MTG Pedals

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Ya, try the release version since it allows you to get a fresh install without having to uninstall/reinstall the OpenBeta. The current release and open beta are basically the same code base right now, so it is almost a apples to apples comparison if the release doesn't have the problem, but the open beta does.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Try this enumerate your devices.

 

Other things to look for in the pics attached.

 

You can re-install TM drivers over top of the old ones and it will rewrite everything.

Just don't proceed to the firmware update where a common problem is people let go of the buttons when it beeps instead of waiting the full minute until your fingers turn blue until the firmware update is finished. One finger wiggle in that painful minute and you brick it at least temporarily.

 

Attach every usb device you use except the TM combo before updating.

Cortana captures cams if that is what you use for a mic as I do and she hangs onto it since she grabs it right on bootup and does never let go even when disconnect (trouble starts there).

USB things get re-ordered by Windows.

If you re-install drivers you must go back and uncheck the allow to sleep box in device manager. Do this for all Human interface devices and HID controllers.

I uncheck both boxes.

 

There is a more drastic approach fort contentious issues.

Don't give up on it yet.

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Win 10 pro 64 bit. Intel i7 4790 4 Ghz running at 4.6. Asus z97 pro wifi main board, 32 gig 2400 ddr3 gold ram, 50 inch 4K UHD and HDR TV for monitor. H80 cpu cooler. 8 other cooling fans in full tower server case. Soundblaster ZX sound card. EVGA 1080 TI FTW3. TM Hotas Wartog. TM T.16000M MFG Crosswinds Pedals. Trackir 5.

"Everyone should fly a Spitfire at least once" John S. Blyth

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I wrote a book and it got lost in the re-sign in. so here's the condensed version.

It sounds like something is disconnecting your stick or throttle periodically and it is reverting back to the DCS defaults as one possibility.

A loose usb connection, static electricity, a device sleeping then awakening are all suspects if it works at first and then midflight messes up.

Sometimes plugging in and unplugging a device such as a cam can re-oerder things as well.

Cortana grabs the cam driver from the get go if you use it as a mic and she does not let go.

She will re-order usb devices to that end if you remove the cam.

You could have changed a binding to another switch that formerly was a hold on a button spring loaded to off. If that were moved to a switch, that switch could be held on at all times when in that position if it wasn't changed to a pulse. (very common).

 

The last pic is the last resort.

Uninstall Target

Disconnect your stick and throttle.

Uninstall all HID devices and controllers except the two for the mouse.

 

shutdown fully.

Plug in everything you use except the throttle and stick and leave them there.

DO not plug in anything new after the TM drivers are installed for the time being to test for a while.

 

Boot up

DO NOT do the firmware section.

Many have tried that and let go of the button before the firmware update is finished.

It takes a minute or two of painful holding down the buttons without breathing long after the beep. Look for the install scrolling on your screen bottom right if you ever go there but that can brick it at least temporarily if you wiggle and let go.

 

The need to update firmware is not common. Don't go there.

 

If re-enumerating doesn't work:

Install the newest TM drivers 2018 H???_1 from July 2018

I still recommend you uninstall target until you have re-installed the drivers and then re-install it.

Don't forget to go back and uncheck allow to sleep on all HID usb devices and controllers since windows will re-install the driver sand re-enable it when it does.

Sometimes Windows updates will uninstall and re-install updated drivers and re-enable sleep mode as well. Check after windows updates each time.

Win 10 pro 64 bit. Intel i7 4790 4 Ghz running at 4.6. Asus z97 pro wifi main board, 32 gig 2400 ddr3 gold ram, 50 inch 4K UHD and HDR TV for monitor. H80 cpu cooler. 8 other cooling fans in full tower server case. Soundblaster ZX sound card. EVGA 1080 TI FTW3. TM Hotas Wartog. TM T.16000M MFG Crosswinds Pedals. Trackir 5.

"Everyone should fly a Spitfire at least once" John S. Blyth

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  • 4 weeks later...

Often there are programs running in the background such as Windows that have access to certain keyboard shortcuts. This means that when using certain key combinations, they may not register in DCS. Alt-tab for one.

 

If you are using a trackIR, it also has keybinds. Mine conflicted so I changed them in TrackIR.

 

Shadowplay for instance uses alt-F9 to activate recording. DCS uses that for the Landing Signal Officer. Conflict.

 

Discord, SRS, TeamSpeak, Even your browser can have keyboard shortcuts.

 

 

Often if these keybinds are trapped, they will not register in DCS or Target when you go to bind them. Take that as a Hint. Print up your keybinds from the Make html in the controls page and go over every keyboard shortcut to ensure they are not already used.

 

 

One advantage to the Target software is it will not let you put in certain controls that in most cases are duplicates somewhere. It give you a big "be careful" by not allowing it.

 

One can use the, other than typing it in method, I forget what it is called, in Target to get it in there anyway which has merit at times.

 

Generally CTRL + keys and Alt+ keys can be problem areas as well as the windows key.

 

It takes a long time to flesh this out but it solves most of these types of behaviours.

Win 10 pro 64 bit. Intel i7 4790 4 Ghz running at 4.6. Asus z97 pro wifi main board, 32 gig 2400 ddr3 gold ram, 50 inch 4K UHD and HDR TV for monitor. H80 cpu cooler. 8 other cooling fans in full tower server case. Soundblaster ZX sound card. EVGA 1080 TI FTW3. TM Hotas Wartog. TM T.16000M MFG Crosswinds Pedals. Trackir 5.

"Everyone should fly a Spitfire at least once" John S. Blyth

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