Jump to content

Minimum Viable Product Business Acumen


Jackil

Recommended Posts

ED has got to get past producing what I call a minimum viable product business model. While I enjoy some of the products (aka A-10C great model, been flying it for a few years) others need some more work. I like the F/A-18C but now there are issues that weren't there before ( like radar sweep, is my radar working or not?) Third party developers are more notorious (Razbam when is AV-8B going to be fully functional? I don't buy anything from VEAO anymore) I am not buying another ED/Third Party flight model until F/A-18C is fully functional. It appears to me they got their talent wrapped up in so many projects they can't finish ones they have released. ED focus on products that are online before releasing new ones! Good grief! Bottom line, no F-14 for me until F/A-18C is fully complete.

 

 

 

Jackil, out

Rig: i7-7700K, ASUS Strix Z270E mb, EVGA 1080GTX, 16GB DDR4 3000, Samsung 960 EVO M2.1 TB SSD, Corsair Hydro Cooler H115i, Win 10 64

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the F/A-18C but now there are issues that weren't there before ( like radar sweep, is my radar working or not?)

 

1/ It says very clearly on the site that it's in Open Beta testing, which means it's not finished, which means some things don't work or may change.

 

2/ ED's talent are not wrapped up in 3rd party modules - that's why they're 3rd party modules...


Edited by Weta43
Forgot this "["

Cheers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the F/A-18C but now there are issues that weren't there before ( like radar sweep, is my radar working or not?) /quote]

 

1/ It says very clearly on the site that it's in Open Beta testing, which means it's not finished, which means some things don't work or may change.

 

2/ ED's talent are not wrapped up in 3rd party modules - that's why they're 3rd party modules...

The whole thing is under their banner. I hold them accountable.

 

It would be the same if I had a company under me, "You hold to my standards or your out. You are representing me with your products. Get in line or find someone else." That's called accountability. Being ED wants to proceed with the status quo then they are ultimately responsible. If they don't like that that then drop them! Plain and simple.


Edited by Jackil

Rig: i7-7700K, ASUS Strix Z270E mb, EVGA 1080GTX, 16GB DDR4 3000, Samsung 960 EVO M2.1 TB SSD, Corsair Hydro Cooler H115i, Win 10 64

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you don't like unfinished modules don't buy it when it is early access.. simple as that.

 

 

Yep, that is what I am going to do. But let me ask you, how long has it been since F/A-18C has been released? We are well past past early release don't you you think? I will have to go back an check my records. I know they have released it on 2.5 version, com'on now. Don't petty fog the issue.

Rig: i7-7700K, ASUS Strix Z270E mb, EVGA 1080GTX, 16GB DDR4 3000, Samsung 960 EVO M2.1 TB SSD, Corsair Hydro Cooler H115i, Win 10 64

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you don't like unfinished modules don't buy it when it is early access.. simple as that.

Right. There are plenty of modules that are in a finished state that are great.

I don’t spend my time on the unfinished modules. No negativity intended there, just that there’s plenty in DCS to keep busy with.

i9-13900K @ 6.2GHz oc | ASUS ROG MAXIMUS Z790 HERO | 64GB DDR5 5600MHz | iCUE H150i Liquid CPU Cooler | 24GB GeForce RTX 4090 | Windows 11 Home | 2TB Samsung 980 PRO NVMe | Corsair RM1000x | LG 48GQ900-B 4K OLED Monitor | CH Fighterstick | Ch Pro Throttle | CH Pro Pedals | TrackIR 5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, I consider the F-18 still in Alpha. But some people have been waiting FOREVER for it, so they released it. Like the guy above said, it's clearly marked as a Beta Product. And we should give them a little leeway with it, as these are systems that have NEVER been simulated before by DCS. So, it's really a work-in-progress.

 

 

As for the third parties, yeah, I kind of take them with a grain of salt. But most seem to do a decent job.

 

 

All in all, I have some gripes about DCS, but mostly they're doing a good job.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well,..From the DCS F/A-18 page.

 

DCS: F/A-18C Hornet is initially being released as Early Access , with several features to be added during the Early Access period. This includes several sensors, weapons, and sub-systems.

 

my bolding.

 

 

 

 

YMMV. :thumbup:

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ED has got to get past producing what I call a minimum viable product business model. While I enjoy some of the products (aka A-10C great model, been flying it for a few years) others need some more work. I like the F/A-18C but now there are issues that weren't there before ( like radar sweep, is my radar working or not?) Third party developers are more notorious (Razbam when is AV-8B going to be fully functional? I don't buy anything from VEAO anymore) I am not buying another ED/Third Party flight model until F/A-18C is fully functional. It appears to me they got their talent wrapped up in so many projects they can't finish ones they have released. ED focus on products that are online before releasing new ones! Good grief! Bottom line, no F-14 for me until F/A-18C is fully complete.

 

 

 

Jackil, out

 

So... the F-18 progress has anything to do with the F-14 how exactly? Oh yeah, it doesn’t. You’re welcome to hold off on the F-14 and park the F-18 for the next couple of years until it’s feature complete but that sounds like one heck of a boring life to me.:thumbup:

 

By buying an early access product you are getting to use the product during part of its development phase, as such you should be cognicent of the fact that stuff will most likely break along the way. You can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs and you don’t make something as complex as the DCS F-18 (or any DCS level module for that matter) without introducing a few bugs along the way. Coming here and waving your arms around as if ED owe you a perfect module out of the gate is rather ignorant of the trials and tribulations of development for a platform like this.

 

Personally I enjoy the Hornet. It flies well, it’s never been so broken that I can’t fly it and every update has been an improvement. The current radar sweep issue is just a visual effect as far as I can tel and I’m sure that will be squashed soon enough.

Proud owner of:

PointCTRL VR : Finger Trackers for VR -- Real Simulator : FSSB R3L Force Sensing Stick. -- Deltasim : Force Sensor WH Slew Upgrade -- Mach3Ti Ring : Real Flown Mach 3 SR-71 Titanium, made into an amazing ring.

 

My Fathers Aviation Memoirs: 50 Years of Flying Fun - From Hunter to Spitfire and back again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ED has got to get past producing what I call a minimum viable product business model.

 

You decide what a viable product is? When you don't understand what an early access is :blink:

 

I don't buy anything from VEAO anymore) I am not buying another ED/Third Party flight model until F/A-18C is fully functional.

This is not nice to tell in the forum. Keep it for you please:tomato:

Attache ta tuque avec d'la broche.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guys it's a valid point - the customer is always right. The early access business model brings great value to the developer. If abused the customers will suffer but if done right it just means that we (can) get more of better stuff earlier for a lower cost.

 

Risks are things like will the developer go out of business before my product is complete, will the features and implementation be eventually what I actually like, and so on. Look at the developer and make a decision. ED's business is very well established. It's not likely they cannot finish a product because there is no money. They will take a brand hit if they push out crap and leave their customers hanging. It looks like the ED customer base is a very valuable cash cow - they would not like to make us angry, we'd go to another developer and ED might go out of business. We already see them taking flak from the community for the EA business model.

 

I take the EA model is a quite new thing with ED? Also they have ramped up the ambition with more modules released, a fair bit of promotion, 3rd party developers... It's not easy to coordinate all this and do everything right. After a while they need to take a hard look at what they are doing, are they trying to achieve too much too soon and are the customers still happy. Is there a risk that the players will be fed up and walk away if one module release is a fiasco?

 

If the product is in early access and you are not sure, don't buy it, it's the smart move. As a customer you have to decide which part of the product lifecycle is the optimal point for you to jump in. Do you want pre-order discounts or ones that come much later from bundles with stable products in them? Do you want to help the developer and influence features and implementation while the team is still working on the module? Is it exciting to get the first dibs on a module or to see it evolve into a stable, complete product? It's not an issue that's unique to ED but it's been in gaming for at least a decade - back in the day some experts said don't buy anything before 6 months after release - but today the envelope is much more aggressive.

 

Yeah the Harrier module has bit of a bad reputation for being buggy and so. BTW it's early access too... How many modules are EA vs how many should be considered stable? The F-18 module was released just over 4 months ago - that's not awfully long for a complex software but in gaming, yes there should be definite improvement visible in that time - unless something really big has been worked on which cannot yet be released to the player base. Game companies are often not very good in communicating what they are doing - to me it looks like ED actually communicates quite a bit and there are frequent releases addressing all kinds of small things. The business has changed a lot in the last 10 years and the companies face new kind of challenges, they need to find ways to engage with the players much more closely.

SA-342 Ka-50 Mi-8 AJS-37 F-18 M2000C AV-8B-N/A Mig-15bis CA --- How to learn DCS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The customer is always right, unless he is wrong.

 

The F-14 will be “fully functional upon release”, which is a damn good reason to get it. Now, if you don’t want to buy on release because the F/A-18 doesn’t fully work yet (because it’s still in “Alpha” (or Beta, whatever...it did say it’s not 100% yet) that’s always your choice...but it seems like the Red Dawn quote, “If a fox has killed some of your chickens, would you kill some of your sheep because they saw the fox?”

 

No! You’d find the fox, hunt it down and kill it.

 

Some aircraft still have bugs after 2-3 years in Release... that could be a legit reason to boycott the 3rd party dev which isn’t fixing them, but not the whole damn game.

 

My $0.02


Edited by VZ_342
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh great another rant about Early Access and somebody who does not understand it. Don't get me wrong the only thing I want for DCS is to see it grow but if this is one of the side effects I'm starting to get second doubts.

''Greed is a bottomless pit which exhausts the person in an endless effort to satisfy the need without ever reaching satisfaction.''

Erich Fromm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep, that is what I am going to do. But let me ask you, how long has it been since F/A-18C has been released? We are well past past early release don't you you think? I will have to go back an check my records. I know they have released it on 2.5 version, com'on now. Don't petty fog the issue.

 

Actually, if you followed the forums and material from ED Producer, Mat Wagner, you'd know that the expected EA state was clearly more or less 1 year.

 

I heard Matt wagner said in an interview that they expected the hornet to be feature complete by December, but that is very difficult to achieve. What I mean is, no one ever said that EA would be like a 3 month thing. You need to consider that carefully when you buy. I agree that it would not be bad if ED stated somewhere the minimum time that under optimal conditions the product would be EA. But all in all, I'm happy with the product and i really think that features will start to flow more regularly during November and December.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...