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VR vs TrackIR


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I always wanted to try TrackIR, but they don't sell it in my country. I tried freetrack with a DIY track clip once, but I ended up breaking a webcam when removing the IR filter, and the tracking with regular not IR leds was bad, so I gave up.

 

some time later I tried facetracknoIR, in fact I tried it many times, followed the developement of the software, even tried to help the guy, and it always sucked so hard. movement was always jittery, always jumping all over the place, the smoothing filters always introduced a lot of lag, basically unuseable (I know some people use it, it just don't work for me, I tried all the settings possible really)

 

then this year I was going to buy a trackIR when I went to the states, but then I thought why not VR? I could use it for work also, so I decided for the oculus rift.

 

and it's great, really immersive, tracking is flawless so far, natural movement, I'm really impressed. but there are some problems, such as screen door effect, motion sickness (I'm really affected by it in VR) and etc.

 

I have a 50 inch 4k tv and DCS looks great on it, so I still wonder how would trackIR feel. I still think VR should be better, I don't really like the fact that you move your head a little and the camera has to move a lot so you can look backwards, but you still have to keep looking to the same place while moving your head. but again, never tested trackIR.

 

what's your opinion on vr vs trackIR?

Rafael

 

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I went from Track IR to VR with my Rift in Jan 2017.

My Track IR has been retired in a drawer ever since.

 

VR is a very subjective thing though.

I was somewhat disappointed at first, due to the reasons you mentioned. The motion sickness went away for me after a couple of weeks. The immersion far outweighed the lower visuals to me.

 

I would not have it any other way. It grabbed me hook, line, and sinker.

But again, it is very much dependent on the individual.

Don B

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I have no experience with VR (i can only dream !) , but i can tell you that TIR becomes second-nature very quickly once you have properly set up your curves . It's a pity regarding the motion sickness . Do you have enough frames to enable ASW ?

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I have both.

 

When I first got TrackIR it was a massive game changer for me as I have been flight simming for many years up to that point. I would never fly without it.

 

I got my Rift about a year ago and that had such a massive impact in the way I was immersed in the simulation it over shadowed my first TrackIR experience by a very long way. As for the motion sickness I did get it at first but that soon goes away and that seems to be quite common among VR users. I don't get sick now at all in DCS. I do get a bit of vertigo every now and then but that is from immersion and not a side effect.

 

I have kept hold of my TrackIR unit and I use it now then for BMS 4.33 but it simply doesn't cut it when you can actually sit in the cockpit. As others have said it is subjective but VR is better :)

 

You have a really nice set up and you will benefit from TrackIR but if you can get both, do it.


Edited by Mule
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For a normal flight ground operations the TrackIR does just fine, it is actually better because you can have the 4k monitor, a large one even, to give you clear good visuals to spot things and to read cockpit well.

 

And VR becomes better when you fly helicopter as you get the touch to the aircraft attitude and speed, what makes VR better for landing as well.

 

But if someone is totally new in the aircraft and you give them VR, they can't read labels, not even HUD (like in refreshed Mig-29) to get the headings or read the compass etc without serious forward leaning to close to read what is happening. In other words, pilot is like a farsighted and needs glasses to read cockpit.

 

But then when it comes to situational awareness about where targets fly, when maneuvering in a phone booth, VR is totally own league now. A year ago it was bad, as you couldn't spot far the air targets, but now you can. They did something for the models that makes it possible to see the attitudes etc, but still not same as with monitors, but when you can far better way to look around, its just better.

 

The best part in VR really is its limitations. You are not checking your six because your neck does not twist like owl. And you need to spend far more time heads down to handle the monitors and screens and you easily notice that how valuable the HUD is for information delivery system compared to screen/monitor.

 

And add then there the Oculus Touch Controllers, you totally throw away the mouse in the DCS as it is obsolete. It is faster and easier to grab a controller on your lap and operate the cockpit, but that comes then in the requirement for slow operations too, and that you bind to HOTAS only the functions there is in the real combat aircraft you fly and nothing more. And rest you will operate with your touch controllers. And suddenly you start to learn the deeper experience to the aircraft you are flying that why given functions are located as they are and you will learn that in fast situations like fighting in a phone booth, you can't start to operate the cockpit as you have no time to move hands away from HOTAS and it would be unpractical because high G forces anyways. And that is what the people who bind a lot of functions to HOTAS there shouldn't be, are cheating. And how the mouse operators are cheating as they never get the experience to reach something otherside of the cockpit that requires you to take hand off the stick. So you start to value every design choices in "the office" and how they can be limited in different situations.

 

The VR as well gives a another perspective to the cockpit designs, like Su-25 vs AV-8B bubble canopy vs "integrated" and you don't find anymore that Su-25 rear visibility bad, as you can't turn your head anyways anymore such a way so easily and you like to use mirrors in both as it is just the easier way to observe what your last gun strafe did.

 

 

I am very much waiting the next generation HMD to appear, hopefully a 4K per eye, and then a next generation GPU (after the Nvidia 20xx series) to run those, and even more the hand tracking that doesn't require touch controllers. Maybe we need a proper VR SLI support, a one card per eye and problems would be solved in performance and visuals. And then a cheaper IR LED gloves that could cost like 50-70€ pair and it could be as well fix things.

 

But what happened to my personal TrackIR? It is placed to one old system as it is required, as it is easier to show someone what is happening when all can see the screen well too.

 

It is just sad that VR doesn't take off as technology for gaming. It will stay a niche utility and there is high risk it will just face a slow silent death, just like previous 5 generations did. And that might mean that DCS World can be the last of the last games that really is utilizing it.

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Yeah VR is absolutely here to stay. Just look at the companies that have jumped in, and are jumping in to it.

 

VR SLI would do nothing for it's adaptation into the market. Talk about a niche within a niche within a niche... Certainly it would be nice for the very few that both could and would spend the dollars on it - for growing the market though, not so much.

 

However the technology being worked on and developed today, will do tremendous things for that adaptation in the future. The Oculus Half Dome project is a very good example of it.

I think Oculus is playing it smart and doing it right, with their multi-pronged approach to both growing the market and creating new markets. ( Go, Quest, and Rift).

Don B

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

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Multi GPU VR will happen, eventually.

 

But not through current methods and quite some time ahead.

 

The RTX implement is a big step towards this, and the Quadlink\SLI it uses will eventually take as many GPU's as you can stuff into a machine, pool all resources that can then be used by software is if it was a singel device.

It's going to happen, it will take a while, but inside a decade I'm sure.

 

Track ir is honestly in-comparable with VR, personally I could never get behind the idea of changing how my view is on a screen, buy moving my head away from it.

Yeah curves and snap zones etc etc, but I just can't get on with the fact that I think it sounds ass backwards.

 

VR is however 1:1, yeah, current versions look as if you grabbed someone elses glasses in terms of fidelity, and you are sort of wearing blinders on, but I'd rather fly a jet.

After that flying on screen isn't flying, it's looking at a really boring screen and pushing buttons.

 

Anyhoo, my 0.2c

And this is just generation one, inside five years what we have now will seem utterly quaint.

V2 of the rift for instance will most likely make the v1 look like a museum piece.

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do you know about vr zoom ? i have a pimax 4k a 1070ti and the rest of the pc is 10 years old and i can read everything in the cockpit with vr zoom. and im still flying 1.5, i believe 2.5 has higher res textures in the cockpits. as for motion sickness, some people are really sensitive and it takes time to get used to it.

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you can physically move your point of vew forward when in-cockpit so the cockpit is more readable.

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I totally have to agree with the others here. Yes, VR is a compromise in image quality, but it's a completely different feeling and a superior experience overall.

 

After one week of using the Rift I sold my TrackIR.

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I moved to the Rift from TrackIR. I haven't felt the need to play with TrackIR again, it hasn't even crossed my mind. Let's put it this way: The Rift gets -5 points for worse image quality. But it gets +50 for the feeling of 3D. I have no problem with readability. If I lean in and use VR zoom I can even set my altimeter based on pressure in the Mustang or the Spitfire.

 

The biggest disadvantage is ID-ing other planes, and spotting ground targets. There are some subtle label mods out there (such as mine) that will help you with this.

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People should remember that VR is currently in its fifth generation. The problems are currently solved because we have more calculation power and better technology for screens, sensors etc. What we had generations before was just a dream back then, but today a joke. Tomorrow current VR is a joke to come, but we are in better position overall than previously.

 

But still VR is not at all success as people think. It ain't something like PlayStation 2 was in sales, not even PlayStation 1.

The limiting factor still is the person behind HMD. Players are lazy, they want quick fun, they want social gaming as own pace gaming. And VR that demands someone to move and wave hands etc, gets quickly tired for it in casual gaming.

 

VR for driving and flying simulators are totally different thing. You sit and have controllers in hands where to rest them. Very niche target group really.

 

One day, if it comes, is that you just wear a HMD that gives true 180 degree FOV, doesn't require any sensor, any controller and no calibrations etc and had good enough quality like 4K per eye, and games would be possible play with or without it. Be it then sitting front of computer with keyboard and mouse, or laying in bed to fly.

And yet the final problem is the human and his senses. Standing still or sitting, and seeing to be running causes too many problems.

 

Other great rest group would be RTS players, that anyone can already experience with Google Earth.

 

Either the gaming industry and all players habits needs to change, or VR will suffer (again) fate to fail, like 3D movies did. Because there are major manufacturers behind something doesn't mean it's success. Now it is curved screens, tomorrow something else.

 

Point being, everyone should be prepared that VR is no more in few years, and prepare their purchase that in mind...

Remember, billion dollar industry and market all went behind 3D... Easier and simpler, and yet failed, because humans.

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those are some valuable arguments, thanks guys. I understand it's value, but I don't think I'l ever bother with trackIR now.

 

But still VR is not at all success as people think. It ain't something like PlayStation 2 was in sales, not even PlayStation 1.

The limiting factor still is the person behind HMD. Players are lazy, they want quick fun, they want social gaming as own pace gaming. And VR that demands someone to move and wave hands etc, gets quickly tired for it in casual gaming.

 

I really disagree. the nintendo wii was a huge success, damn, look at pokemon go, people actually got outside to play a video game. I do believe that the main reason VR hasn't exploded yet is price. perhaps 90% price and 10% stuff like the screendoor effect, motion sickness, etc. but the industry really seem to be moving towards more accessible VR. and I hope so, VR is indeed a game changer like many mentioned.

 

Either the gaming industry and all players habits needs to change, or VR will suffer (again) fate to fail, like 3D movies did. Because there are major manufacturers behind something doesn't mean it's success. Now it is curved screens, tomorrow something else.

 

Point being, everyone should be prepared that VR is no more in few years, and prepare their purchase that in mind...

Remember, billion dollar industry and market all went behind 3D... Easier and simpler, and yet failed, because humans.

 

I also strongly disagree here

 

3d movies are (sadly) not dead yet, but just because the industry keeps pushing them onto the audience. they should be dead. again, like they died in the 80's because it's a failed concept. movies are made the same way they were always made, the director films it the most cinematic way, and not the most immersive way. you don't get to "experience" being in the movie just cuz you're seeing it in 3d, directors (almost) never think about the 3d experience, they don't make movies from a person's point of view, most of the time they don't even make it 3d at all, it's just converted later in post, and the result is total crap. for the first 5 minutes it's like you're seeing a cardboard actor in front of another cardboard actor, in front of a cardboard background. for the rest of the movie you just forget there's any intended sense of depth. you just can't forget you're watching 3d because the movie is way darker, you can't see anything on dark areas, colors are terribly unsaturaded, and all other kinds of quirks. some theaters are better, some are worse yes, but even movies in imax are just a marketing scam.

 

I saw this latest avengers movie in the cinema and had to watch again at home when it was released, I didn't see a thing on that part with the dwarf, where it was really dark. I'd really pay double the ticket price to see a movie not in 3d, but the good viewing rooms with all the bells and whistles only exhibit 3d movies here, you have to watch in a small room with bad audio to see a regular movie (in this country at least).

 

sorry that went a little off topic here, got a strong opinion on this subject. my point is, 3d movies are terrible, and they are still around. it's not a fair comparison to VR, totally different worlds, but I really don't think VR is dying anytime soon, and I certainly hope not. there's always be a niche for enthusiasts, but today we buy VR headsets, next day when everyone has them, we'll be buying synced moving platforms for more immersion.

 

just my opinion though :pilotfly:

Rafael

 

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If VR is dying then you should absolutely enjoy it while it lasts. The hardware to drive it will drive the latest and greatest flat earther screen so you are only out the cost of the HMD.

 

An HMD is cheaper than a decent 4K monitor.

 

Build a great system that is top of the line VR capable. Attach it to a cheap 1080 monitor and buy a VR HMD and enjoy yourself.

 

If VR dies you can go buy an 65 inch 4K monitor and wax nostalgic about the good old days of VR.

 

 

 

 

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If VR is dying then you should absolutely enjoy it while it lasts. The hardware to drive it will drive the latest and greatest flat earther screen so you are only out the cost of the HMD.

 

An HMD is cheaper than a decent 4K monitor.

 

Build a great system that is top of the line VR capable. Attach it to a cheap 1080 monitor and buy a VR HMD and enjoy yourself.

 

If VR dies you can go buy an 65 inch 4K monitor and wax nostalgic about the good old days of VR.

 

Oh no, a DECENT 4K monitor will set you off considerably more than a Rift would. Besides. I am getting decent FPS in 2d in DCS and in VR we are having all sorts of optimization issues.

 

So while I have a nice rig and a Vive Pro, I am still mostly flying in 4K with TrackIR.

My controls & seat

 

Main controls: , BRD-N v4 Flightstick (Kreml C5 controller), TM Warthog Throttle (Kreml F3 controller), BRD-F2 Restyling Bf-109 Pedals w. damper, TrackIR5, Gametrix KW-908 (integrated into RAV4 seat)

Stick grips:

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Thrustmaster Cougar (x2)

Thrustmaster F-16 FLCS

BRD KG13

 

Standby controls:

BRD-M2 Mi-8 Pedals (Ruddermaster controller)

BRD-N v3 Flightstick w. exch. grip upgrade (Kreml C5 controller)

Thrustmaster Cougar Throttle

Pilot seat

 

 

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VR is not fo everyone. Few yers ago I suffered from vestibular neuritis (inflammation of inner ear) and thankfully I recovered but I cant go on rollercoaster on example (not that I would go anyways in my age haha). I will get sick. Some guys without any health issues are getting motion sickness for a longer period after using VR. So if you can you need to try it first then buy it if everything goes ok. And VRs are still imperfect. Picture quality isnt right still, spotting enemy aircraft isnt easy and you will need a much stronger rig to run a sim decently with VR than with TrackIR or similar.

TrackIR and even EDtracker Pro are much better for folks mentioned above.


Edited by Tvrdi
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