Spotting & Long distance rendering.

[Jarlerus]

I see the issue of spotting (air and ground targets) and the immersive impact of effects like smoke, contrails etc, as essentially the same problem: Render Distance.

 

Right now, at a certain distance, units on the ground and in the air de-render and are instead (at best) rendered as a pixel. That pixel can be much smaller than the unit was just before it de-rendered, making it look as it pops in and out of existence. This problem is exaggerated on screens with small pixels/high resolution, making it difficult to spot targets.

 

 

The problem of smoke effects, explosions and contrails not rendering at a certain distance and zoom can be easily understood as problematic for situation awareness and immersion.

 

 

These issues are also a problem on high end systems, even if render settings are maxed out. I have good fps, but can't turn render distance up any more.

 

----

I wish for a better solution to these problems that is less dependent on screen resolution and is adjustable through settings, so that it works on lower end systems.

 

 

My uninitiated proposal would be to use sprites when targets and effects are beyond the set maximum render distance. Units (air & ground) would be a scalable "dot" (independent from screen resolution, and corresponding scale to the size of the unit) and effects could be replaced by simple sprites, just to give us some visual indication of events beyond the current render distance.

 

//Jarl

 

P.S.

I think the scaling that was tested/used earlier was not good, as it skewed the users situational awareness too much.

Targets where easier to spot, but it gave an unrealistic and warped representation of the (game) world.

 

EDIT:

OK, so I did some tests/comparisons.

Seems like some units have an "intermediate" level of LoD (level of detail) that actually does what I ask for in this post, and some don't.

 

 

As you can see below, the trucks suddenly de-render into dots.

 

 

I also did a illustration of the con-trail issue. (KC-135 as subject).

Edited October 21, 2018 by Jarlerus
Added P.S.

[Lao Fei Mao]

+1, better add an adjustable bar of object view distance in the video option, would be benifit high-end system.

[Wacko_ZA]

+1 to thisSpotting is a epic pain in the tail.

In vr its impossible until its too late

[mikpen14]

+1

[FistofZen]

+1, want better spotting.

[trindade]

+1

[Mars Exulte]

-1 Use search

[smallberries]

I'll offset that -1 with a +2

 

This one needs to be a top priority

[Elwood]

+1

[vikko]

+1 . Although multiple attempts to improve things, my laptops 17.3" 1920x1080 screen makes things impossible to see.

[msalama]

Comes to all kinds of kludges I've seen in this sim, ED-originated or otherwise - there was f.ex, a mod that made all ground units visible from anywhere as LARGE black blobs - I'd say we actually need a drastic reduction in visibility. Thank you.

[SharpeXB]

+1 . Although multiple attempts to improve things, my laptops 17.3" 1920x1080 screen makes things impossible to see.

That’s a hardware problem not a problem with DCS. You can’t play a flight sim like this on such a small screen and expect to easily see distant objects. You need to just use icons for that setup.

[bear.is.flying]

Add in some a reverse scaling of of dot size based on zoom value - i.e. scale up the dots / sprites so they are visible at standard zoom values, and make them shrink down to “actual size” at max zoom. This way players have a balance of detection ability, while still being able to visually guesstimate range when zoomed in.

[Jarlerus]

Comes to all kinds of kludges I've seen in this sim, ED-originated or otherwise - there was f.ex, a mod that made all ground units visible from anywhere as LARGE black blobs - I'd say we actually need a drastic reduction in visibility. Thank you.

 

Are you arguing that the visibility of units should be reduced because there is a mod out there that makes them too visible? :huh: Seems odd.

 

Add in some a reverse scaling of of dot size based on zoom value - i.e. scale up the dots / sprites so they are visible at standard zoom values, and make them shrink down to “actual size” at max zoom. This way players have a balance of detection ability, while still being able to visually guesstimate range when zoomed in.

 

 

Any scaling option that makes units render as sizes they are not is something I would like to be avoided. IMO units should always be rendered at their true size, never larger. The problem I suggest solving is when the render engine renders units smaller (as in one pixel or less) when it should actually be larger.

[SharpeXB]

The problem I suggest solving is when the render engine renders units smaller (as in one pixel or less) when it should actually be larger.

Do you have any specific screenshots or examples?

[oldpop]

The difference between me and you playing this sim is 1000000 to 1. Graphics cards, monitor size, resolution, shading to name a few. Not to mention that what you see in RW is in 3D vs the 2D of the sim world.

Therefore I believe that there MUST be an enhancement, of some sort to allow the average "simmer" to detect targets.

 

The FA18's HUD make the task much worse with the "shaded" top half. DCS fixed it once, but it is back to too shaded again!

[StandingCow]

Spotting contrails or distant missile trails is weird, they appear when you zoom in or move them to the side of your monitor, but when looking right at them they are invisible...

[Jarlerus]

Do you have any specific screenshots or examples?

I will return later with pictures.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Jarlerus

[Jarlerus]

*added pictures to First Post*

[bear.is.flying]

Any scaling option that makes units render as sizes they are not is something I would like to be avoided. IMO units should always be rendered at their true size, never larger. The problem I suggest solving is when the render engine renders units smaller (as in one pixel or less) when it should actually be larger.

 

 

 

The issue is “true size” rendering is only accurate if your monitor is as large as your actual visual field. That’s why we need some help unless you’re literally playing on a full sized dome projector.

[Wizard1393]

The issue is “true size” rendering is only accurate if your monitor is as large as your actual visual field.

 

Not intirely true but sure... The true size will also be correct if your in game FOV setting (zoom) corresponds to the true FOV that is made up of view cone angle made up between your eyes and the sides of your display. But that means playing at a FOV of ~25 degrees for all the time, for most "regular" screen setups, and that offcourse would not work as it would look way too zoomed in. You would come close® to "correct" FOV with a VR set or a triple monitor setup.

Edited October 22, 2018 by chrisofsweden

[bear.is.flying]

Yes you are correct there. I’m assuming most people don’t play zoomed in that far all the time.

 

A compromise would be to render the airplanes the size they would be if you were zoomed in 1:1 no matter what your current zoom level is. However, that would look highly unnatural and some sort of compromise scaling is needed.

[Jarlerus]

There's more ways of making spotting realistic than scaling of the actual target/unit.

 

Using contrast and color to simulate/replicate a realistic behaviour is one way to go, without unrealistic scaling of models. (this would be dependent on lighting conditions though)

 

In the example pictures I've added to the first post it can be seen that the lowest level of LoD is somewhat light gray in color, which makes it hard to see against the background. There's room for improvement here. One would have to make a study of how it is perceived IRL in similar circumstances to develop a better model for spotting.

[SharpeXB]

The issue is “true size” rendering is only accurate if your monitor is as large as your actual visual field. That’s why we need some help unless you’re literally playing on a full sized dome projector.

That’s what the zoom view is for.

 

There’s about a hundred thousand posts about this topic here already. Unless there’s something new to say let’s give it a rest.

Edited October 23, 2018 by SharpeXB

[Mars Exulte]

Indeed. There is no magic solution that avoids all potential issues. The LoDs are one of the chief problems, as was illustrated with screenshots here and in the many other threads on the same topic, with some units snapping in/out of render more than others.

 

This has plagued every flight sim ever. Either you can't see or you're using a gamey mechanic. They can't adjust on the fly for people's various monitor sizes, resolutions, seating arrangements, etc. People playing on tiny laptops are screwed, that is one of a long list of why laptops are suboptimal. Etc etc everything that has been said 9000 times already.

 

Zooming is the easiest, least hardware demanding, and most 'realistic' (you have to know where to zoom, it doesn't just make targets obnoxiously visible so you can't miss them). For folks screaming about immersion, one way or another, we gotta compromise on this topic. There is no way to account for all variables people introduce.

 

Nobody here is some unheard genius citing a study or observation that hasn't made 99 times already. We're just talking in circles. ED is working on methods of dealing with it, be patient and see what they come up with.