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Force Feedback Support?


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During the interview with the Devs after the surprise Flyby at VUAF yesterday, one of the devs mentioned that the Tomcat was a plane that you could "fly by your ass":D, which got me to thinking... Will the F-14 have force feedback support?

 

Obviously the flight control system is irreversible but I imagine one would still feel the buffeting or the rudder pedal shakers, which could be "simulated" via stick shake instead....

9./JG27

 

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"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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Unfortunately I don't think so. We will probably get a simple centering stick force, thats it. The Mig29 with the PFM as well as the Su27 have some really subtle ffb effects at edge of envelope regimes that would probably work great in the F14 as well, but I think unless the devs get a force feedback stick its all wishful thinking on our part.

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Mig and Su 27 aren't made by heatblur.... I don't know how it is in the Viggen but I guess it will be similarly implemented, if at all. Getting your hands on a Sidewinder isn't that hard tbh... There are plenty around if you keep your eyes open for a bit.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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BUMP... anyway we could get an official answer, just yes or no would be enough.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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  • 4 weeks later...

Any updates on this @Cobra?

 

Will there be any force feedback support (even just a centering force) in the initial release?

 

Thank you in advance!

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I was told that the company who holds the patents on force feedback technology is...uh...stingy on licensing. That's why we don't see as many force feedback controllers these days, and probably why nobody makes anything with an eye towards that right now (only throwing in support later on).

 

 

It's going to be a while before we see this be big again. It's also reason number 5,791,664 why we need to revamp the patent process.

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What other forces are you expecting? Genuine question, I promise I'm not being sarcastic!

 

Apart from the centering effect? None at all. But some stick vibration at edge of envelope conditions (when the cockpit vibrates) would be quite useful, not to mention immersive.

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think the feel provided by artificial feel devices in F-14 control systems could (and should) be simulated with a force feedback stick. It seems that in addition to traditional spring forces there are also increasing stick force per G provided by bob weights and eddy current damper which resists rapid control movements. I didn't quite figure out does the stick change its center position when using pitch trim but it seems to do that when using aileron trim.

 

On lateral feel it has variable control stops which limit stick deflection as a function of airspeed. This could be done using soft stop on FF stick to inform player that the virtual stick has reached limit of travel and further movement of the ff stick doesn't provide anymore control surface deflection.

 

I think it would be awesome if Heatblur eventually simulated all this for force feedback users and sets the bar a bit higher also on this regard.

 

Here are the references I found out:

https://books.google.fi/books?id=J-8cAgAAQBAJ&lpg=SA1-PA105&dq=f-14a%20artificial%20feel%20unit&hl=fi&pg=SA1-PA94#v=onepage&q=f-14a%20artificial%20feel%20unit&f=false

 

and

 

https://books.google.fi/books?id=GL5GDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA265&ots=LrcNJSIe8s&dq=cam%20and%20roller%20feel%20package&hl=fi&pg=PA265#v=onepage&q=cam%20and%20roller%20feel%20package&f=false

 

Unfortunately on the second document the page where F-14 longitudinal feel system is explained is not available for preview.

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I think the feel provided by artificial feel devices in F-14 control systems could (and should) be simulated with a force feedback stick. It seems that in addition to traditional spring forces there are also increasing stick force per G provided by bob weights and eddy current damper which resists rapid control movements. I didn't quite figure out does the stick change its center position when using pitch trim but it seems to do that when using aileron trim.

 

On lateral feel it has variable control stops which limit stick deflection as a function of airspeed. This could be done using soft stop on FF stick to inform player that the virtual stick has reached limit of travel and further movement of the ff stick doesn't provide anymore control surface deflection.

 

I think it would be awesome if Heatblur eventually simulated all this for force feedback users and sets the bar a bit higher also on this regard.

 

Here are the references I found out:

https://books.google.fi/books?id=J-8cAgAAQBAJ&lpg=SA1-PA105&dq=f-14a%20artificial%20feel%20unit&hl=fi&pg=SA1-PA94#v=onepage&q=f-14a%20artificial%20feel%20unit&f=false

 

and

 

https://books.google.fi/books?id=GL5GDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA265&ots=LrcNJSIe8s&dq=cam%20and%20roller%20feel%20package&hl=fi&pg=PA265#v=onepage&q=cam%20and%20roller%20feel%20package&f=false

 

Unfortunately on the second document the page where F-14 longitudinal feel system is explained is not available for preview.

 

I agree that would all be really cool, the only problem is that there are no FFB HOTAS sticks around so only very few people are going to experience it. Maybe if the FFB sticks market was bigger than it would be a possibility

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I like to think about it in that way if someone would make a top notch support for FFB then there would be greater demand. Now many see FFB in flightsticks to be just a gimmick which shakes the stick when you fire and thus makes you less accurate and that is why people don't even want FFB or it is considered only to be good for helicopters or WW2 aircraft but not for modern aircraft. The FFB support should be good enough and realistic mimicking the forces of the real aircraft for players to want one as it makes flying easier and make you a better pilot.

 

I counted the FFB sticks in the ED primary controller poll and there was around 115 FFB users. That is around 4% of all the answers which is not much but still quite many considering that no new equipment has been made in years. Of course the count could have been slightly higher if FFB sticks had been in the poll options. We'll just have to hope that there will be new and better FFB sticks when the old patents open up.

 

Anyway I hope we'll eventually get at least basic FFB support for F-14 which pretty much is correct trimming logic for the aircraft.

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I’ve got an MS Sidewinder 2 FFB which we can use for developing a FFB model. However, this is more of a low priority compared to other items currently on the to-do list.

 

Top news that someone of the team has such a stick finally. I'm glad when we can expect this during the early access period.

dcsdashie-hb-ed.jpg

 

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I’ve got an MS Sidewinder 2 FFB which we can use for developing a FFB model. However, this is more of a low priority compared to other items currently on the to-do list.

 

Not sure this is what he meant

Top news that someone of the team has such a stick finally. I'm glad when we can expect this during the early access period.
(ie, ffb effects available during early access), but great job at putting words in his mouth.

 

Honestly, would be great but understand that this is not a priority.

 

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Yeah I'm more or less the only one blocking the TF30/F-14A after the F-14B release, as the art is mostly finished. I imagine that will take priority before sitting down to spend time on a control loading model. We may try to reuse what the Viggen has as a temporary measure, but that's TBD.


Edited by fat creason

Systems Engineer & FM Modeler

Heatblur Simulations

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Not sure this is what he meant (ie, ffb effects available during early access), but great job at putting words in his mouth.

 

You just managed to do the same. "During early access" can be in the last week before this thing goes from early access to "released" which means it would then be feature complete - FFB included rainbowdashwink.png

 

Yeah I'm more or less the only one blocking the TF30/F-14A after the F-14B release, as the art is mostly finished. I imagine that will take priority before sitting down to spend time on a control loading model. We may try to reuse what the Viggen has as a temporary measure, but that's TBD.

 

I can clearly see the TF30 priority there. What you suggested to discuss in the team would be a good base to begin with, since it's the fundamental FFB spring + trim feature. Refining it to mimic the F-14's stick behaviour as close as possible is something we can most probably wait for as long as the basics are in. Would be nice to have that interim solution, thanks for telling us that idea twilightsmile.png


Edited by Eldur

dcsdashie-hb-ed.jpg

 

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  • 2 months later...
Yeah I'm more or less the only one blocking the TF30/F-14A after the F-14B release, as the art is mostly finished. I imagine that will take priority before sitting down to spend time on a control loading model. We may try to reuse what the Viggen has as a temporary measure, but that's TBD.

 

So it's been a while since this discussion, but we're coming up on launch so I was wondering if there are any news or updates regarding force feedback support on early access, or after that?

 

A control loading model based on G-load (as the real Tomcat had) would be absolutely awesome.

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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honestly I love the idea of ffb but are the sticks using it actually any good? the ones ive seen (ms sidewinders) are all really old and partly dont work and the ffb kept shutting off and kicking back in making it near unusable. I know why we havnt seen more of them but the sticks seem to be a poor choice for most dcs things where you kinda need/should have those extra buttons/hats.

 

personally its a good idea but hard to find a GOOD working stick worth getting and using over my warthog. I did buy a yoke for my civil sims that works well when it wants to but most of the stuff I fly arnt compatible with the software or I have to change control setups in various aircraft to make it work so I usually dont bother using it.

 

point being I understand the frustration of not having supported ffb but the gains typically arnt worth the effort or limitations that come with it. so I am curious what sticks you find that are actually good for this.

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The stick itself is awesome but yeah it lack of button needed for modern jet. I use mainly for helos and Russian fighters (29 and 27). Heatblur support whenever possible for FFB is mostly welcome.

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