New Fulcrum PFM is very susceptible to PIO and excessive bounce.

[Mars Exulte]

Yes, yes we know you believe in the Russian superman ;) You know ED HAVE a MiG-29 pilot on staff, right? I'll take their word for it over yours. Also, I'm pretty sure you can still use highways if you want. Just because it's difficult, doesn't make it wrong... nor is the MiG the 'most dangerous frontline fighter on the planet' by any means or criteria. And I say that as the MiG-29 is one of my absolute favorites in-rl

[pepin1234]

How a Cold War front line tactical fighter should do in our simulator:

 

 

How is in DCS with the new Physics and joystick curves just out of the box ( are you kidding me... make the whole community tuning up joystick curves, do you really like the people ride on this insane setup ):

 

[Ironhand]

How a Cold War front line tactical fighter should do in our simulator:...

 

 

None of it is particularly difficult. Of course, without a means to refuel, etc, the whole idea of road landings is kind of worthless anyway.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Ironhand

[pepin1234]

 

None of it is particularly difficult.

 

I am thinking in the new pilot want to try out Mig-29. I know you share your curves and I thank you, but the people should have out of the box the standard curves for the most populars Joystick. When you thinking in spread out the Mig-29 users, of course.

 

Of course, without a means to refuel, etc, the whole idea of road landings is kind of worthless anyway.

 

Worth it and gave me a lot of kills nothing unreal... if you like ambush could be deadly

[Weta43]

That does look like the video provided...

 

OT:

the whole idea of road landings is kind of worthless anyway

 

Maybe - maybe not. I've made SP missions before where I set up some structures as a forward base and the pilot had to land on the road at that point to complete the mission.

At the time I 'cheated' the start of the next mission with the plane starting the mission 10m off the ground above the road at just over take-off speed - as it wasn't possible to set an aircraft to take off from the road.

 

If you could set aircraft to take off from the road in the same way you can helicopters, SP missions (& goal specific MP missions that didn't involve multiple refuel/re-armings) could be set up to operating from a forward base

[Ironhand]

That does look like the video provided...

 

OT:

 

 

Maybe - maybe not. I've made SP missions before where I set up some structures as a forward base and the pilot had to land on the road at that point to complete the mission.

At the time I 'cheated' the start of the next mission with the plane starting the mission 10m off the ground above the road at just over take-off speed - as it wasn't possible to set an aircraft to take off from the road.

 

If you could set aircraft to take off from the road in the same way you can helicopters, SP missions (& goal specific MP missions that didn't involve multiple refuel/re-armings) could be set up to operating from a forward base

Yes. I had been thinking more in terms of a remote base with landing to refuel and rearm. Your scenarios are what the "save game" feature we used to have long ago was useful in creating.

 

I am thinking in the new pilot want to try out Mig-29. I know you share your curves and I thank you, but the people should have out of the box the standard curves for the most populars Joystick...

Guess that could apply to all the aircraft. But for any given aircraft, people fly with all sorts of curves or none at all so that might be a solution either.

[bbrz]

the people should have out of the box the standard curves for the most populars Joystick.

I'm using a 2% deadzone on the rudder, roll and pitch axis, and a 15% curve for pitch and roll for all my DCS planes. Nothing special for the MiG-29.

 

@Ironhand, a pretty impressive landing, not only for a layman!:thumbup:

Edited June 19, 2019 by bbrz

[Hyundae]

Attach Mig-29 reference material.

 

I do not know why this part is controversial.

Attach reference material.

 

 

 

 

At the end of the YouTube video,

Approach speed: 290 km/h

Touch down speed: 240 km/h

VVI speed: near zero at the radar alitimer is near 0 m

 

The perfect landig is near zero bouncing !

Edited June 19, 2019 by Hyundae

[Steinsch]

I do not know why this part is controversial.

Attach reference material.

 

 

 

 

At the end of the YouTube video,

Approach speed: 290 km/h

Touch down speed: 240 km/h

VVI speed: near zero at the radar alitimer is near 0 m

 

The perfect landig is near zero bouncing !

 

Thanks for sharing. But what exactly is your point with this video?

[Steinsch]

Guess that could apply to all the aircraft. But for any given aircraft, people fly with all sorts of curves or none at all so that might be a solution either.

 

I agree 100%. Curves are very personal, and may even evolve with time. The devs are not going to second guess end users.

[Hyundae]

Thanks for sharing. But what exactly is your point with this video?

Man-made simulators can not be 100% real.

But many developers are working to make it similar.

If the flight model is too ridiculous, it will be a problem, but if not, I think that this argument is unnecessary.

[bbrz]

If the flight model is too ridiculous, it will be a problem

I don't see a problem. Rather the opposite. This video nicely shows that the MiG-29 apparently is very pitch sensitive, at least at low speed on final.

From 17:22 until touchdown you can easily notice the constant pitch/AoA oscillations.

Edited June 19, 2019 by bbrz

[Steinsch]

Man-made simulators can not be 100% real.

But many developers are working to make it similar.

If the flight model is too ridiculous, it will be a problem, but if not, I think that this argument is unnecessary.

 

The "controversy" here stems from the fact that the pain level, definition of ridiculuousness and perception of what a PFM should be vary from player to player. Some players finds the way the plane responds to controls and physics is unacceptable, while others are very comfortable flying the plane in its current state. Plus the others in the middle.

 

Things can always be improved. The PFM of the F-15, Mirage and others also took time to refine.

But in the meantime, I'm going to enjoy that Fulcrum as it is! :)

Edited June 19, 2019 by Steinsch

[Steinsch]

I do not know why this part is controversial.

Attach reference material.

 

 

 

 

At the end of the YouTube video,

Approach speed: 290 km/h

Touch down speed: 240 km/h

VVI speed: near zero at the radar alitimer is near 0 m

 

The perfect landig is near zero bouncing !

 

 

I've got a question though. Has anyone managed to touchdown gracefully at 240 KMH in-game?

[draconus]

I've got a question though. Has anyone managed to touchdown gracefully at 240 KMH in-game?

I'd guess that our military Mig's are not tourist cut - lowered weight version like that. So more like 260 even when "осталось 500 килограм".

 

 

btw: On my budget HOTAS I prefer not using curve for pitch axis. It may seem counterintuitive but it works for many specifically in the Mig.

[Steinsch]

I'd guess that our military Mig's are not tourist cut - lowered weight version like that. So more like 260 even when "осталось 500 килограм".

 

 

Makes sense. Hadn't thought of that.

[bbrz]

Since we don't know the weight, the AoA is much more interesting. A few moments before touchdown it's close to 11° and at touchdown it's just a tad above 10°.

Looking at the ASI, the touchdown occurs just a tad below 250km/h.

 

It's interesting to note that (if it's not related to the pitch instability) he uses a slight trick to achieve a smooth touchdown.

 

Just before touchdown occurs, he slightly decreases the pitch attitude. This makes the main gear to rotate a bit upward and the following touchdown will be very smooth if you get the timing and height exactly right. It's not as easy as it looks!

 

If you are bit too high the pitch attitude will decrease too much and/or the sink rate will increase again.

Edited June 19, 2019 by bbrz

[Steinsch]

Just before touchdown occurs, he slightly decreases the pitch attitude. This makes the main gear to rotate a bit upward and the following touchdown will be very smooth if you get the timing and height exactly right. It's as easy as it looks!

 

 

Yes. And that also works in-game to reduce the bounce, or the feeling of bounce (sometimes it's just the schock absorbers proping you up a little bit but without making the main gear leave the runway.)

[HWasp]

This PFM has changed a lot since release, but for me it seems, that with the current latest beta, most problems are gone. It is sensitive in pitch, but without that nasty ground effect bug present, it is no problem, if you fly a stable approach and are in trim.

 

Those, who didn't fly the plane in a while, should try it again now.

Edited June 19, 2019 by HWasp

[Ironhand]

I've got a question though. Has anyone managed to touchdown gracefully at 240 KMH in-game?

 

Not 240 but 250, if light. Usually somewhere between 250-260, though.

 

...

 

@Ironhand, a pretty impressive landing, not only for a layman!:thumbup:

:) Thanks. It took three attempts (I think) to stay on that road, though. The things are so freaking narrow that, after touchdown, the slightest mistake will put you where you'd rather not be.

Edited June 19, 2019 by Ironhand

[Hyundae]

Although MiG-29 is difficult to land, it is not at a level that I can not understand.

 

I also hvae the some the other dcs modues which is that F-14, F-18, A-10, MIG-15, MIRAGE 2000 ...

 

Although the MiG-29 is difficult to land, it is not at a level that I can not understand.

Among the games I have played, the most difficult of landing is falcon 4.0.

If you want to discuss bouncing at touchdown, play this game and you will know.

 

 

My MiG-29 landing video, It is below that.

https://youtu.be/VcXTVmHJwZU

 

 

My joystick some setup.

Deadzone 3, curve + 20 (AILERON, ELEVATOR, RUDDER)

 

 

APPROACH SPEED: 290 KM/H

TOUCH DOWN: 270 KM/H

 

 

Before approach, I trimmed the elevator up to 11 clickes.

 

I almost trying on the approch:

Maintain the 10 degrees AOA and the glide path 2.5 ~ 3.0 degrees.

Edited June 19, 2019 by Hyundae

[bbrz]

Before approach the 11 click up trimmed.

Maintain the 10 degree AOA and the glide path 2.5 ~ 3.0 degree.

On the RW video the average AoA on final is a much lower 7.5°. 10° seems to be a bit high/slow since the touchdown AoA occurs at 10°.

 

Noticed in your video that, although you said that you trimmed for 11° AoA, you were never in trim and even needed to apply back pressure already above 7° AoA.

Edited June 19, 2019 by bbrz

[bbrz]

Those, who didn't fly the plane in a while, should try it again now.

I'd love to, but unfortunately I don't have access to my DCS PC until the weekend :(

[yufighter]

[Weta43]

That "Day at 23 Tactical Air base vid - the landing starting at 06:01 - the pilot bounces 3 times into the air before sticking it.