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New Fulcrum PFM is very susceptible to PIO and excessive bounce.


DmitriKozlowsky

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Honestly if you dont s*ck at handflying and understand basics of pitch & power, alpha and always flying the numbers the 29 is really easy and forgiving to fly in DCS. I think for most people one of the issues is having a cheap, little resistence joystick which can easily induce high pitch rates and said PIO - since switching to the Virpil WRBRD base and heavy spring I find it a lot easier to make precise inputs. A lot of the videos I see where people mess up the landing or takeoff they simply don't fly the numbers and come in way fast and way hard or simply flare too aggresively. I will say though I have experienced instances of the reverse ground effect happening a few times but wasn't able to pinpoint what causes it - it might even be airfield dependent.


Edited by Skysurfer
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1 hour ago, Skysurfer said:

I have experienced instances of the reverse ground effect happening a few times

Have you read about losing good deal of stabilators' authority in ground effect?

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 12/19/2020 at 12:34 PM, Mateo said:

Hello there!

 

I would like to share my settings and a way of using it for all fans of MiG-29 who are in troubles due to pitch channel singularity and who are using a short stick like Saitek X52, Saitek Cyborg or Logitech etc.

 

I have spent plenty of hours testing especially take offs and landings with different settings, I found out:

  • during normal flight within envelope, pitch trim is set a bit for AFT ("pulling"), during special circumstances trim setting is FWD or for high AFT setting.
  • when in flight envelope you are pulling the stick over 75% of range, the MiG enters the range over critical AOA, which is rarely used.
  • during inverted flight and afterburner use, stick need to be pushed almost to the limit of FWD range.
  • during landing or rather flare itself, stick need to be pulled in sophisticated manner to almost 'MAX AFT' which is simple to feel in real aircraft, but not so obvious in simulator. I have tested Saitek Cyborg Evo and Logitech Extreme 3D Pro, both gave me soft touchdown, so I share my way to let other's try. FIrst of all that procedure is based on document "Техника пилотирования МиГ-29". For not speaking russian I will translate most important part about landing:

    [...] At the height of 30...20 m check the speed and aiming point and continue visually glancing ahead and a bit left to judge descend rate visually. At height 10...8 m start flaring and let the aircraft fly horizontally at height 0.5...0.8 m. With following descend and speed drop reduce thrust to IDLE. Touchdown should occur at speed 260 ... 250 km/h and AOA should be 11 degrees. [...] Touchdown with AOA above 13 degrees is forbidden.

So the first thing to do it correctly with short stick is to achieve more precision when pulling. I have achieved this by settings that I have uploaded here. Please note that all range of stick movement is available, the trick is that precision is increased within range used for normal flight. Making it with 'Curve' settings only is impossible and will result in much worse effect for short stick use.

The second thing is to contribute the pulling with trim action, because it is precise. Below 30 m height, involve few trim up inputs in order to reduce descend rate just a bit. Then both pulling the stick and trimming up might be used to fly the aircraft almost horizontally at height of 0.5 m.

The third thing and the last one is to avoid pushing the stick. It can be achieved by pulling the stick by fingertips few times or gently pull once and hold pulled. Never let it move in forward direction too much as it will result in lost of stability on flare, and it will for sure result in hard touchdown with bounce.

 

Wish you soft landings.

 

Best Regards,

Mateo

 

021.jpg

 

 

Just wanted to thank you for posting this. I finally took the time to test this pitch axis customization and what a difference it makes. Thank you.

 

In case some folks are wondering, I'm not seeing any difference in turn rate, etc between Mateo's setting and the slight curve I had been using.

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@MateoThank you for pitch user curve settings post.

 What settings do you find the best for roll? 

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On 2/17/2021 at 6:28 PM, Ironhand said:

 

 

Just wanted to thank you for posting this. I finally took the time to test this pitch axis customization and what a difference it makes. Thank you.

 

In case some folks are wondering, I'm not seeing any difference in turn rate, etc between Mateo's setting and the slight curve I had been using.

 

Ironhand, what Joystick do you use? 


Edited by Lurker

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22 hours ago, Gierasimov said:

@MateoThank you for pitch user curve settings post.

 What settings do you find the best for roll? 

Hello, I appreciate that my settings were helpful for some of you.

Regarding the ROLL I prefer precision near center and less precision near defclection limit. Simple curvature wasn't so satisfying for me, but I think most of pilots would accept it (at the level about 25).

 

Regarding general aerodynamics of MiG-29 in roll - ED took into account decreasing ailerons/elevons effectivity with increased angle of attack and SAU limitation, anyway if you want to increase roll rate during manouvers, you need to decrease angle of attack. If you are in combat turn at high AOA and want to roll the aircraft, two variants are considerable - lower AOA a bit or simply accept low roll rate. You might notice that if aircraft all trimmers are reset to center aircraft rolls well.

Final result/advice: if you move stick on side in order to roll, you need to simultaniously push the stick forward, a little.

 

My roll settings below: 

 

roll.jpg

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3 hours ago, Mateo said:

Hello, I appreciate that my settings were helpful for some of you.

Regarding the ROLL I prefer precision near center and less precision near defclection limit. Simple curvature wasn't so satisfying for me, but I think most of pilots would accept it (at the level about 25).

 

Regarding general aerodynamics of MiG-29 in roll - ED took into account decreasing ailerons/elevons effectivity with increased angle of attack and SAU limitation, anyway if you want to increase roll rate during manouvers, you need to decrease angle of attack. If you are in combat turn at high AOA and want to roll the aircraft, two variants are considerable - lower AOA a bit or simply accept low roll rate. You might notice that if aircraft all trimmers are reset to center aircraft rolls well.

Final result/advice: if you move stick on side in order to roll, you need to simultaniously push the stick forward, a little.

 

My roll settings below: 

 

roll.jpg

What an epic answer @Mateo - thanks a lot!

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For someone who is still keen on axis settings, @Svend_Dellepude noted here that:

Quote

 

joy axis is scaled about 2:1 when pushing the stick from center compared to pulling from center.

 

 

 

His solution were to have full virtual deflection when pushed about halfway. 

I have checked it out and I agree - there is some kind of conflict wih MiG-29 axis scaled 2:1 compared to joystic physical 1:1. You might try Svend method or try artifically move the center a bit in AFT direction and it will make great difference, it will also result in more intuitive take off and landing. One disadventage is trim center also will move AFT.

 

Actually it all depends what price we will pay to be close to realism, someone would rather have more realistic feeling, and someone would rather have more realistic stick position, including trim center.

 

I have tested setting which also include axis scale and I recommend you all to play with it, it will make good effect on feeling the aircraft.

 

Best Regards,

Mateo

 


Edited by Mateo
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  • 2 weeks later...

Welcome back 😛

After some days of testing and reading all the complains for pitch through over two houndred pages thread for Russian speaking players I have began to wonder about pitch instead of controls settings - I simply have little doubts that even with long precise stick the aircract behave as it is currently presented in DCS. I know that ED team have involved even CFD to have the correct figures for MiG, in general they made good job but... but anyway even CFD could give inaccurate result in some cases - aerodynamics of 17m plane with non-linear characteristics for speed range to Mach 2.5, having LERX wing... is hard to calculate even with best available hardware today. It's clear we cannot solve Navier-Stokes equation to achieve accurate result close to realism. The figures like coefficient of lift + drag + momentum are the basic and it could e achieved by CFD, it has been done right, ED proved it in Russian thread that I mention above. The MiG documentation have it clear what are the numbers of that basic coefficients characteristics and it has been done accurate. Let's talk about things which do not related to basic charateristics of DCS MiG-29, but might be essential to what we feel on stick:

- Aerodynamic Stability and control derivatives (it does include damping). Proffessional flight simulators numbers are taken mostly from CFD, manufacturer calculations, and finally - flight data recording of real airplane. Of course there is no parameter to record like 'aerodynamic damping' or some stability derivative, it is made by calculation based on other parameters during specified manouver. The test flight consist of such specific manouvers in order to reveal parameters directly related to our 'stability and control derivatives'. Finally after plenty of records engineers make the simulator, they put the test pilot into it and test pilot says that many things are wrong - and it is normal, it is always like this. Engineers then change the figures and it is clear that the numbers in sim become a bit different that CFD and flight test calculations, but test pilots judgement are satisfactory and simulator might start certification process. To tell long story short - aerodynamic stability and control derivatives are the key numbers for what we feel on stick (disregarding SAU in this case)

- SAU itself is a NOT Fly By Wire system, it is directly connected to control system in order to increase damping, change the forces on stick, etc, it has got huge effect on handling qualities and it is extremly difficult to create SAU model in simulator like DCS to let the sim handling be realistic - most of us have the short stick and equal forces disregarding what is happening to aircraft in simulator. DCS MiG-29 might be simply so accurate in numbers that it is impossible to feel it realistic - short stick and equal forces are not what SAU does.

- one of polish retired MiG-29 pilot wrote on polish il2forum.pl that such DCS MiG-29 sensitivity is far from real, the real aircraft were very easy to handle, especially on low speed where controls response were much less sensitive then on high speed. 

 

So I came back to playing with control settings to involve axis scale and I read about file FMOptionsMiG29.lua which has got only few lines, but allows to increase damping.

I've got interested in parameter fuselageMyDampK which is related to damping in pitch, it is problably one of corrective coefficient for Cm_q, which have effect only on aerodynamic short period oscillations. Default value is 0.3. I have played within range of 0.3-70.0. I recommend setting 9.0, also some values between 1-9 might be satisfying for you. It makes a different only in short period oscillations, so it is safe to change it, all characteristics, performance of MiG is intact after change.

File is located here: \DCS World\Mods\aircraft\Flaming Cliffs\FM.

 

I do also upload my pitch axis scaled settings, before someone ask about it. If some of you feel the difference after FMOptionsMiG29.lua change, please let me know, I hope it will help for some of pilots with standard joysticks.

 

Screen_210310_173705.png


Edited by Mateo
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4 hours ago, Cmptohocah said:

Not sure if it helps anyone, but I always trim the aircraft a bit nose-up before any takeoff. Some 3-4 trim circles. This helps me have somewhat stable takeoff. Last time I forgot to do this, takeoff felt like a rodeo show.

 

Yes, I always count to three while holding the nose up trim. This allows for a consistent and straight takeoff.

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  • 1 month later...

Damper tweaks in Ver 2.7 imo make the MIG29 a much nicer aeroplane down final. The pitch sensitivity to both pilot input and config changes is much improved. it sits there quire nicely on the Glide slope with much less tendency to oscillate in pitch.

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5 hours ago, IvanK said:

Damper tweaks in Ver 2.7 imo make the MIG29 a much nicer aeroplane down final. The pitch sensitivity to both pilot input and config changes is much improved. it sits there quire nicely on the Glide slope with much less tendency to oscillate in pitch.

This makes it interesting to visit the MiG-29 cockpit again. Thanks 👍

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On 4/15/2021 at 6:15 PM, Skysurfer said:

 

I just match the top of the stick with the switch directly behind the stick. 

Yes. That's the perfect elevator trim for takeoff in the MiG. I rotate around 290kph. No issues. And if you are bouncing on landing try reducing your vertical speed on touchdown. 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 4/16/2021 at 10:07 AM, IvanK said:

Damper tweaks in Ver 2.7 imo make the MIG29 a much nicer aeroplane down final. The pitch sensitivity to both pilot input and config changes is much improved. it sits there quire nicely on the Glide slope with much less tendency to oscillate in pitch.

Good news.

 

Remember how users received heavy flak from some individuals in this forum for pointing out some oddities with pitch behavior pre 2.7.

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Was really funny, I was practicing some landings at Batumi in IFR with several aircraft, and when I tried to land with the Mig-29G, it bounced like hell and I always crashed. What I found so strange was that I tried to land at about 250 km/h on the HUD (Mi-g-29 landing speed), until I noticed something strange: it indicated a desired landing speed of only 140 ! 

Now that seemed to work. It is only then that I realizd the Mig-29G displays the HUD speed in knots, not km/h !!!

A flight in the Mig-29A confirmed everything: here I could easily land at 250 on the HUD! 😄 

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[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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  • 1 year later...
On 4/16/2021 at 10:07 AM, IvanK said:

Damper tweaks in Ver 2.7 imo make the MIG29 a much nicer aeroplane down final. The pitch sensitivity to both pilot input and config changes is much improved. it sits there quire nicely on the Glide slope with much less tendency to oscillate in pitch.

I revisited the MiG-29 yesterday and can confirm it flies very nicely now; much more realistic! Well done ED!

 

On a sidenote, I love how you can now smoothly rotate the -29 on take-off and also land smoothly on the main wheels and aerobrake the plane. It's time the MiG-21 got that improvement as well...


Edited by Volator
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