Jump to content

New Fulcrum PFM is very susceptible to PIO and excessive bounce.


DmitriKozlowsky

Recommended Posts

Remember ''I don't like this'' and ''this isn't correct'' are not synonymous. The other difference is that most the people.flying this fairly touchy aircraft are not professional MiG-29 pilots. Regardless of its characteristics, it's not surprising the RL pilots are smoother ;) Smoother means less bouncy bouncy, too.

 

If nobody use the Mig-29 in Multiplayer you assume we should not tell “I don’t t like this”. All right, all right...

 

I advise you if you are not a Mig-29 pilot stop throw your OT post about TAXI behavior in a thread is talking about touchdowns and landing.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
I don't think the problem is my technique. I land F-5E, Mig-21, and AV-8B, without a problem. There are two issues with Mig-29 PFM (both A & S). First is pitch control. I use X56, and my pitch curve for -29PFM is 40. Normally it is 25. So a pixel's worth of pitch deflection, as seen in on screen stick control, causes inordinate amount of pitch. Second is exaggerated bounce. There are two types of bad bounce. First is main gear bounce, due to excessive VV. Second, more insidious one, and one that does not make sense, is front gear bounce and rebounce, with each one picking up more energy, untill A/C is back in the air, despite throttle down to idle, and drogue chute out. Like Flubber from Disney.

 

+1

 

MiG-29 in FC3 bounces like a bastard on landing, specifically the nose gear. It's as if there is a shock amplifier rather than a shock absorber on the front landing strut. No other aircraft in DCS (I have most of them) behaves even remotely similarly in landing. I have no way of telling whether it's realistic design fault or a simulation issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have no problems flying or landing the 29. Just fly the speeds, flare properly and make sure the damper is on at all times. (No red warning on the caution and warning panel).

 

For landing, come in perferably in a somewhat flat approach, pass the runway treshhold at around 300-320kph and touch down at 260-270kph. Gauge the closure rate in your peripheral vision by the speed the runway closes on you and flare with very small inputs as it's very pitch sensitive. Also make sure you are trimmed out during the whole approach.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is going to be anecdotal, but I spent about an hour doing pattern laps in the A and the S just to see if I noticed anything different, and I haven't. It's still landing the same way for me.

 

 

 

Like Airhunter said above, except I typically come in a little nose-high and then gently settle over the runway before flaring at about 280-300kph. I prefer keeping it nose-up because that allows me to come in with a little bit of power (never bring one of these in on idle power).

 

On touchdown, I keep nose-high for as long as I'm able to before gently setting the nosegear down and deploying the chute.

 

This is just my strategy and I treat it a little more carefully than I need to, but that's what works for me. I got the idea on treating it this way from watching real-life 29A videos where they basically do exactly that and maintain nose-up attitude for a short distance down the runway. I've noticed in DCS you have to maintain nose-up probably longer than you would IRL to slow down similar distances, but that's kind of a minor thing.


Edited by Auditor
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not about how it's done properly. Everyone can learn that eventually. It's how it behaves after nose bounce. It is mentioned in the manual that 29 is prone to that but the huge jump we experience now is unbelievable. It's not that somebody does that IRL so no manual or SME can help here - only math and flight modeller can save the aircraft to behave rationally. It's a sim after all so we should be able to simulate every dumb thing the pilots do and expect the aircraft to behave as IRL.


Edited by draconus

🖥️ Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX3060   🥽 Rift S   🕹️ T16000M HOTAS   ✈️ FC3, F-14A/B, F-15E   ⚙️ CA   🚢 SC   🌐 NTTR, PG, Syria

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My great success.:thumbup: I jumped only once when landing. Is there any better result?

 

:) You mean, other than not bouncing at all? Nice landing.


Edited by Ironhand

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg

 

_____

Win 10 Pro x64, ASUS Z97 Pro MoBo, Intel i7-4790K, EVGA GTX 970 4GB, HyperX Savage 32GB, Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB SSD, 2x Seagate Hybrid Drive 2TB Raid 0.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Give bad weather / low visibility a try :joystick:

 

 

${1}

Edited by Dr Zaius

System Specs: Intel Core i9-9900K 3.6GHz @ 4.8GHz, Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master, 32 GB G.Skill Trident Z DDR4-3600 RAM, GeForce GTX 4090, Crucial SSD (750 GB), TrackIR 5, TMWH, TM T-Flight Rudder Pedals, Samsung 49” Odyssey G9

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doesn't look all that different. But you're right, there is a bit more nose bouncing, though he's getting some too:

 

 

You have a lot more sensitive controls and aircraft reacts much faster, more like on rails.

Looking the stick movement in real Soviet aircraft, they throw the stick around a lot for minor corretions, and aircraft barely moves as they do the small corrections quickly with big stick angles.

 

i have the VKB 200mm extension and yet MiG and Sukhoi are more sensitive than on IRL videos. and you should never be required to dd any curves or sensitivity.

In DCS i have the general feeling that aircrafts has too much "bite" in the air, too little inertia from high mass and that you have too much control authority, with even small inputs.

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello everyone! I have just written some criticisms of the new PFM. Well, after the right training, now I can only praise this PFM!!! I have documented myself, also thanks to the excellent users of this forum, and I can say that the new flight model is much more faithful (and fun) than the previous one. Now I land naturally following the few and simple rules necessary. Teaching: you must always train before criticizing. Thank you all for the useful advice !!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Glad to hear that! All it takes is practice and getting a feel for it. If you touch down gently around 260kph(+/- 10kph) you should be good. Just try to not slam it and gauge the closure rate by the way the runway closes in on you in your peripheral vision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Mig-29 Landing

 

I don't know if things have changed in recent updates but I find it totally doable to land the Mig-29 without bouncing. I agree the controls feel super twitchy compared to other planes, but I think if we all had a stick with a proper extension (I don't) and therefore an increased throw, the issue would just go away.

 

What works for me:

Touchdown at about 280KMH, under 2 m/s, AoA about 9°.

 

Nose wheel down under 250 KMH, with slight stick pull back before impact for a bit of cushion. This slight stick pull back is maintained after the chute is deployed to avoid serious nose wheel bouncing.

 

The landing in this video is my best attempt so far, and honestly I can't reproduce that kind of smooth landing consistently, but I definitely got rid of bouncing in 90% of my landings with the Fulcrum.

 

 

Steinsch

Flying Virtual F-15s since 1989

YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/c/CommanderSteinsch

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tricky & touchy I can handle. That's just technique - regardless or stick or whether or not you have an "extension". I have a WH set up with no curves and no dead-zones (I tried them - they didn't help). This, and only this aircraft is almost un-flyable with it - nothing else has the same problem.

Once the gear is up and with just the damper ON, it twitches all over the place with any input. The control setup shows everything is moving smoothly, but in cockpit, watching how the stick moves (and the control indicator), the roll axis seems to act as if there is a massive dead-zone, then suddenly jumps in the direction it is supposed to, but worse is the pitch that acts in reverse initially until it reaches some imaginary spot, where it carries on in the normal direction. You can see the stick twitch forwards in the pit when easing it back. This can be overcome by trimming the nose until it reaches equilibrium with that imaginary spot, at which point, the stick forward authority is practically zero. Another oddity is if I set my X & Y axis to act as Sliders, it seems to work a little better. Right now it is broken - at least for some people, so just telling people that they are not good enough doesn't help. It also doesn't help that the manual has almost no information on how to fly this thing - I mean the one we are supposed to use - not some unauthorised download from the interweb.


Edited by mkiii
crap spelling
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tricky & touchy I can handle. That's just technique - regardless or stick or whether or not you have an "extension". I have a WH set up with no curves and no dead-zones (I tried them - they didn't help). This, and only this aircraft is almost un-flyable with it - nothing else has the same problem.

Once the gear is up and with just the damper ON, it twitches all over the place with any input. The control setup shows everything is moving smoothly, but in cockpit, watching how the stick moves (and the control indicator), the roll axis seems to act as if there is a massive dead-zone, then suddenly jumps in the direction it is supposed to, but worse is the pitch that acts in reverse initially until it reaches some imaginary spot, where it carries on in the normal direction. You can see the stick twitch forwards in the pit when easing it back. This can be overcome by trimming the nose until it reaches equilibrium with that imaginary spot, at which point, the stick forward authority is practically zero. Another oddity is if I set my X & Y axis to act as Sliders, it seems to work a little better. Right now it is broken - at least for some people, so just telling people that they are not good enough doesn't help. It also doesn't help that the manual has almost no information on how to fly this thing - I mean the one we are supposed to use - not some unauthorised download from the interweb.

 

 

I don't know who said people are not good enough. For my part, I acknowledged that controls were super sensitive, more so than other aircraft in DCS, and stated what worked for me for landing, which seemed to be the subject of the thread.

 

Controls of the Mig-29s in DCS do annoy me, but I'm not a Mig-29 pilot nor an aeronautical engineer, so I can't say it's broken.

But I concur with the need of a proper manual for this game.

Steinsch

Flying Virtual F-15s since 1989

YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/c/CommanderSteinsch

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say if you are having trouble with the MiG-29, make sure your stick is working correctly and the curves are set appropriately. I run about 10% curvature on the flight controls. Also, what Steinsch said above....land about 280, low rate of descent, and about 10 deg nose up. If you blackout on touch down or blow a tire, then you landed too hard.

 

Personally I like the new flight model.

 

ED please make these Russian birds into full modules.


Edited by Zeagle

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

land about 280, low rate of descent, and about 10 deg nose up.

Reducing the ROD is the tricky part due to the same 'reverse' ground effect like in the F/A-18.

 

I hope ED fixes this bug and landing the MiG-29 will become even easier :)

 

The unnatural pitch down moment requires an unrealistic pull which easily translates into PIO.


Edited by bbrz

i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reducing the ROD is the tricky part due to the same 'reverse' ground effect like in the F/A-18.

 

 

 

Aaaaaah! So there's a word for that. I've noticed my mig takes a dive once reaching 30m AGL, even though AoA and speed are constant at this point. I could not explain that.

I counter it with more trim.


Edited by Steinsch
Clarification

Steinsch

Flying Virtual F-15s since 1989

YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/c/CommanderSteinsch

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Steinsch That comment wasn't specifically directed at you, but in general. As for the setting up of the stick - for my part, as mentioned, it isn't the stick. All other a/c fly OK. The only one I still have problems with due to my lack of practice, is the F-14 in dogfight situations, but that's me not handling it. As for landin the 29 - that rarely happens now, since I seem to be spending any time post takeoff trying to figure out what is going on with the stick before giving up and flying something easier like the Gazelle. If my controls are 3 foot long or 3 inches long, it will make no difference if the FCS making me trim the nose up until it has little nose down authority. It's as if a half implemented FFB system is trying to act on a non FFB stick. As I previously mentioned - in neutral trim, at moderate cruising speeds with the aircraft in damper mode, and straight & level, pulling gently back on the stick actually makes it push forwards in the cockpit. This can be trimmed out with Nose UP trim to a point where the opposite occurs - stick back causes the cockpit stick to go forward. A click of nose down trim then presumably puts it in what it wants to be neutral trim. At the same time, the left and rtight movements cannot be trimmed out and act as if stuck until enough force is acting to get the cockpit stick to move. This can not be how the real thing works - pilots would be crashing left right & centre. So it seems I am the only one with this specific problem, and it is only on the latest version of the Mig-29s. I think I'll just give up on this for now, it's not worth the effort.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's as if a half implemented FFB system is trying to act on a non FFB stick. As I previously mentioned - in neutral trim, at moderate cruising speeds with the aircraft in damper mode, and straight & level, pulling gently back on the stick actually makes it push forwards in the cockpit. This can be trimmed out with Nose UP trim to a point where the opposite occurs - stick back causes the cockpit stick to go forward. A click of nose down trim then presumably puts it in what it wants to be neutral trim. At the same time, the left and rtight movements cannot be trimmed out and act as if stuck until enough force is acting to get the cockpit stick to move. This can not be how the real thing works

Have you checked the FFB settings? AFAIK these can e.g. ruin the airplane handling if set to ON without having an FFB joystick.

i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yup. FFB is off, and no non FC3 modules are affected, not even the SU-25T - an erstwhile FC aircraft. I noticed that the odd twitchy stick movement is also present in the F-15 and A-10A, but not the associated lack of control - it's weird to say the least. I'm just hoping that a fix finds it's way into the mix at some point. My problem does seem like fighting a trimming force. And just to get back on topic, I did try some landings. Boy does this thing bounce. It's like a powerball. All of the FC aircraft also seem more than willing to tip over at a moments notice, as bad as the Spit.

 

 

[EDIT] Heads up - the cause of my trim and sticky stick problems was that the new option in the Gameplay GUI for "Autotrimmer" was set ON - Not sure exactly what it is meant to do, but it didn't help. Mig-29 still handles like a pig, but at least it goes where I point it now.


Edited by mkiii
Found problem
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I recently went from an X-52 stick to an X-56. My MiG-29 flies a lot better....Also I run 10% curvature and a dead zone of 2. Make sure your stick is properly setup and calibrated before even starting DCS.

 

As far as the "twitchy" thing goes, you can trim her out just fine. The MiG-29 does not have an FBW system like modern fighters. It's a hybrid. And its unstable. So you have to always fly her. Having said that I can trim her hands off no problem with the new stick.

 

If you are bouncing you are landing with too much vertical rate. Try to keep her below 10 degs nose up and about 5 or so meters per second. She can make some really nice landings.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...