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Top Jockey

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Hello everyone,

 

 

Thrustmaster Top Gun Afterburner

 

Well, after 17 years of useful and generally good service, my faithful joystick was retired last week.

 

Too frequent center position jumping / deviate, on the axis "X" (roll axis), most times to the right side.

Unplugging and plugging again the USB connector, made its center position to be stable for some minutes, but then it started all again to jump / deviate by itself.

 

I believe it was what you call, a "potentiometer fail / wear".

Other than that, there were no significant fails in it in all these years.

 

As it isn't easy to change its potentiometer by myself, I decided to get its replacement.

 

 

Thrustmaster T.16000M FCS and TWCS Throttle

 

After reading several reviews (here also), I decided to acquire this set.

So far everything is of my like and the Hall effect seems promising.

 

For the ones who have this throttle, a doubt :

 

Is it natural that parts like the midle hat switch (the one below the POV hat), have some 2 milimeter play / looseness ?

 

Is it natural that clicks in some directions on this hat are less pronounced than others ?


Edited by Top Jockey

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I checked my TM16000 which is on the shelf and pressed into use when, not if, the sticks fail.

There is definitely some play in the hat. I never even noticed it before.

It is a $50 stick. I don't expect it to be much better. I found it worked extremely well.

Cheap things are generally made of cheap stuff. My switches never gave too much trouble so far.

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I checked my TM16000 which is on the shelf and pressed into use when, not if, the sticks fail.

There is definitely some play in the hat. I never even noticed it before.

It is a $50 stick. I don't expect it to be much better. I found it worked extremely well.

Cheap things are generally made of cheap stuff. My switches never gave too much trouble so far.

 

Hello,

 

Yes, right out of the box the HAT in the stick already has some noticeable play.

 

About the middle HAT on the TWCS Throttle however, I don't remember if it already had it the first few times I tried it.

 

But that's preciselly this one which annoys me a bit, as these HATs on the TWCS are the 'novelty' for me comming from a Top Gun Afterburner.

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  • 8 months later...

Hello everyone,

 

Would greatly appreciate your recommendations on the following please:

 

Now my T.16000M FCS stick grip is getting some play / looseness, only 8 months after being bought.

It's about 3 millimeters wobble along the Y axis (back and forward motion), before the inputs effectively start.

 

 

So I have some doubts and would really appreciate your advice:

 

T.16000M FCS

- should I open it, and try to adjust / tighten something in the inside ?

- do its interior components allow it to ?

 

HOTAS Warthog (thinking about eventually buying it):

- this is regarded as an high quality product... but will its grip have the same play / looseness / wobble / etc after many hours of use also ?

- for those of you who have the Warthog, is it worth the money ?

- does it have any major issues / problems ?

 

Thank you.

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I would skip over the Warthog and look at Virpil or VKB.

The Thrustmaster gimbals are 10 years old plastic designs, and it shows.

 

If you want the A10/F16 grip over what VKB/Virpil are offering, you could get a 2nd hand Warthog or Cougar grip and use that (straight on with Virpil, or with an adapter on VKB).

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VKB doesn't have a throttle unit yet and the latest Virpil one has some issues (like no AB detent and some weird axis noise when the left and right throttle are passing each other).

 

So, I'd get a TM Warthog as the software is pretty powerful and the price is rather affordable now. Plus, you could add those nifty MFD's to it.

 

And if you need a better gimbal for the stick afterwards, you can always get a Virpil BRD base which can emulate the TM base so you could still use the TM Target software.


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You can't go wrong with the Warthog as the cost for whole setup is currently an excellent deal compared to its original retail price or competitions. Not only that, parts are widely available and support is very good. When things break, you would get a replacement within 1-1.5 wk (can't say the same about other companies). Target software is also very powerful if you have time to invest in it.

 

The TDC slew on the throttle is no good but becomes excellent after installing a mod (Deltasim's). The stiffness of the stick is quite high near the center, this can be mitigated by adding extra springs to the lower spring columns or cutting the top spring. After working around these shortcomings, it is as good as anything out there.

PC: 5800X3D/4090, 11700K/3090, 9900K/2080Ti.

Joystick bases: TMW, VPC WarBRD, MT50CM2, VKB GFII, FSSB R3L

Joystick grips: TM (Warthog, F/A-18C), Realsimulator (F-16SGRH, F-18CGRH), VKB (Kosmosima LH, MCG, MCG Pro), VPC MongoosT50-CM2

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Thank you people for your insight.

 

The wobble / looseness is a tiny part the grip itself, but another part is indeed the gimbal.

(Certainly what aniron mentioned.)

 

Do you guys think that it can be tightened at inside (gimbal mechanisms) ?

(I don't care about the warranty.)

 

 

I would skip over the Warthog and look at Virpil or VKB.

The Thrustmaster gimbals are 10 years old plastic designs, and it shows.

 

If you want the A10/F16 grip over what VKB/Virpil are offering, you could get a 2nd hand Warthog or Cougar grip and use that (straight on with Virpil, or with an adapter on VKB).

 

About the VKB and Virpil - yeah they caught my attention indeed as I've been reading about them here, but:

- I've read here that one of those (or maybe the 2), does have a ridiculous production rate (and therefore poor availability)...

- besides, are they much more expensive than the HOTAS Warthog ?

 

 

VKB doesn't have a throttle unit yet and the latest Virpil one has some issues (like no AB detent and some weird axis noise when the left and right throttle are passing each other).

 

So, I'd get a TM Warthog as the software is pretty powerful and the price is rather affordable now. Plus, you could add those nifty MFD's to it.

 

And if you need a better gimbal for the stick afterwards, you can always get a Virpil BRD base which can emulate the TM base so you could still use the TM Target software.

 

That's my worry: is the Warthog stick gimbal also expected to gain looseness / wobble after some time ?

 

You can't go wrong with the Warthog as the cost for whole setup is currently an excellent deal compared to its original retail price or competitions. Not only that, parts are widely available and support is very good. When things break, you would get a replacement within 1-1.5 wk (can't say the same about other companies). Target software is also very powerful if you have time to invest in it.

 

The TDC slew on the throttle is no good but becomes excellent after installing a mod (Deltasim's)...

 

That's my point right there: I've come from a 17 year old TM Top Gun Afterburner, and nothing ever "broke"; only the X axis pot failed after all those years.

 

So my question still keeps:

 

- is the Warthog stick gimbal also expected to gain looseness / wobble after some time ?

- are VKB or Virpil sticks better in this department (no wobble / play / looseness) ?

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Thank you people for your insight.

 

The wobble / looseness is a tiny part the grip itself, but another part is indeed the gimbal.

(Certainly what aniron mentioned.)

 

Do you guys think that it can be tightened at inside (gimbal mechanisms) ?

(I don't care about the warranty.)

 

 

 

 

About the VKB and Virpil - yeah they caught my attention indeed as I've been reading about them here, but:

- I've read here that one of those (or maybe the 2), does have a ridiculous production rate (and therefore poor availability)...

- besides, are they much more expensive than the HOTAS Warthog ?

 

 

 

 

That's my worry: is the Warthog stick gimbal also expected to gain looseness / wobble after some time ?

 

 

 

That's my point right there: I've come from a 17 year old TM Top Gun Afterburner, and nothing ever "broke"; only the X axis pot failed after all those years.

 

So my question still keeps:

 

- is the Warthog stick gimbal also expected to gain looseness / wobble after some time ?

- are VKB or Virpil sticks better in this department (no wobble / play / looseness) ?

 

 

Let me illustrate the difference.

This is the TM Warthog gimbal (~$200 without the throttle)

SqKAIox.jpg

Just a plastic ball and socket and a large spring around it.

 

This is the VKB Gunfighter (~$300-450 depending on choice of grip, grips are exchangable):

s885922084547390625_p429_i4_w640.png

 

This is the Virpil WarBRD (~$300-400 depending on choice of grip)

26158848_138976630106167_4606144282254901248_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-bru2-1.cdninstagram.com&ig_cache_key=MTY4OTE1NTM2MzM2MTIzMjAyOQ%3D%3D.2

 

Replaceable cams, replaceable springs, both with several options, ball bearings, need I go on?

 

It is true that availability for VKB and Virpil is much worse than Thrustmaster, you cant just pop into a store or order one on Amazon and have it in your hands within the week. They do cost considerably more, about half again to double, but it is considered worth it to many.

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Let me illustrate the difference.

This is the TM Warthog gimbal (~$200 without the throttle)

...

Just a plastic ball and socket and a large spring around it.

 

This is the VKB Gunfighter (~$300-450 depending on choice of grip, grips are exchangable):

...

 

This is the Virpil WarBRD (~$300-400 depending on choice of grip)

...

 

Replaceable cams, replaceable springs, both with several options, ball bearings, need I go on?

 

It is true that availability for VKB and Virpil is much worse than Thrustmaster, you cant just pop into a store or order one on Amazon and have it in your hands within the week. They do cost considerably more, about half again to double, but it is considered worth it to many.

 

Outstanding insight - point understood !

So I take it that even HOTAS Warthog's gimbal may be susceptible to gain some looseness in the future.

 

Regarding the T.16000 stick :

- do you know if it's possible to tighten the gimbal, to decrease the wobble ?

- either in the stick gimbal and the throttle (TWCS) rails, can I use 5w40 synthetic motor oil as lube, or will that be detrimental to the materials ?

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Hello everyone,

 

HOTAS Warthog (thinking about eventually buying it):

- this is regarded as an high quality product... but will its grip have the same play / looseness / wobble / etc after many hours of use also ?

- for those of you who have the Warthog, is it worth the money ?

- does it have any major issues / problems ?

 

Thank you.

 

I've had a Warthog almost 10 years now. Whenever I notice it getting a little sloppy, I open it up and clean it. Problem solved.

 

It is a mechanical object and requires a little bit of maintenance to operate at peak efficiency. Other than occasional cleaning I've had ZERO issues with it...


Edited by Sierra99

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I own most of these devices out there (except the newest Virpil T-50 base and throttle). Functionality-wise they're mostly the same after setting up correctly (including appropriate modding of springs/cams/etc. to your liking) and didn't change the way I do formation flying/AAR/carrier landing etc. It's just a matter of how much you do want to spend.

 

Of the 2 TMW HOTAS sets (one is pushing 4-5 years old, the other is less than a year old), I had a messed up base because I took it apart incorrectly, and one fried throttle motherboard during a power outage. Both of which got fixed fairly quickly via TM support and are working fine. Frankly I do not see any big issue with TM, and that's why I'm also getting the Hornet grip from them.

 

If you're looking to spend more then there're also plenty of options besides VKB/Virpil such as Realsimulator devices, WINWING, or even industrial grade HOTAS.

 

Should you go with VKB or Virpil, you will likely have to open them up because the default cams/springs are very soft and most people will not like it especially after coming from TM devices. Virpil WarBRD has slightly longer throw than VKB GF or TM Warthog and is not suitable for long extension tube (works with my 10 cm extension but the throw is too long for my taste). VKB GF has dry clutch option so it can stay put without returning to the center and this is great if you want to use it as throttle for spacesims/mechwarrior games (there's a faint click that can be felt when you move the stick back to the center, none on the Virpil).

PC: 5800X3D/4090, 11700K/3090, 9900K/2080Ti.

Joystick bases: TMW, VPC WarBRD, MT50CM2, VKB GFII, FSSB R3L

Joystick grips: TM (Warthog, F/A-18C), Realsimulator (F-16SGRH, F-18CGRH), VKB (Kosmosima LH, MCG, MCG Pro), VPC MongoosT50-CM2

Throttles: TMW, Winwing Super Taurus, Logitech Throttle Quadrant, Realsimulator Throttle (soon)

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Thank you people.

 

On the T.16000 stick :

- do you know if it's possible to tighten the gimbal, to decrease the wobble ?

- either in the stick gimbal and the throttle (TWCS) rails, can I use 5w40 synthetic motor oil as lube, or will that be detrimental to the materials ?

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Don't use motor oil, people are using grease (search the forum). I'm not sure how to tighten the T.16000 gimbal as I no longer have one and never opened it up. I'm quite familiar with Warthog/Virpil WarBRD/VKB Gunfighter II/FSSB R3 bases though, have opened em all up and messed with all the settings.

PC: 5800X3D/4090, 11700K/3090, 9900K/2080Ti.

Joystick bases: TMW, VPC WarBRD, MT50CM2, VKB GFII, FSSB R3L

Joystick grips: TM (Warthog, F/A-18C), Realsimulator (F-16SGRH, F-18CGRH), VKB (Kosmosima LH, MCG, MCG Pro), VPC MongoosT50-CM2

Throttles: TMW, Winwing Super Taurus, Logitech Throttle Quadrant, Realsimulator Throttle (soon)

VR: HTC Vive/Pro, Oculus Rift/Quest 2, Valve Index, Varjo Aero, https://forum.dcs.world/topic/300065-varjo-aero-general-guide-for-new-owners/

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Thank you everyone for your advice.

I'm yet to decide if I'll open the stick gimbal mechanism.

 

Well, yesterday I also researched a lot throughout the web for this matters; particularly for "thrustmaster plastic gimbal".

(Eventually many hits came from eagle forums; other from redit; etc.)

 

And let me tell you: after the T.16000M I'm not much prone to keep with Thrustmaster:

 

- the pics @aniron posted are elucidative - plastic gimbal in an expensive product like the Warthog, do not gain my sympathy;

- I mean the Cougar already caught my eye long ago, the same for the Warthog;

 

- but then you see an 8 month T.16000M gaining a little center play / wobble, several people also criticize the Warthog plastic gimbal (which can break in some cases), and you realize there are other brands with more robust construction - VKB, Virpil, etc.

- Virpil support was quick to reply to my technical doubts and I'm waiting their estimates of availability and shipment of some products...

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Don't forget that Warthog implicate in buy a dedicated rudder pedal, a hidden cost.

 

But since you have a TWCS throttle can get only Warthog stick (~$210 in Amazon) and use the paddle rudder in TWCS.


Edited by Sokol1_br
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- do you know if it's possible to tighten the gimbal, to decrease the wobble ?

- either in the stick gimbal and the throttle (TWCS) rails, can I use 5w40 synthetic motor oil as lube, or will that be detrimental to the materials ?

 

Nothing to by tighten for "fix" T.16000M gimbal, the play is due plastic parts wear.

Increase spring tension, possible with MOD like for X-52 - but installed inside, will increase the wear rate.

 

T.16000M gimbal is a low cost version of Warthog gimbal.

 

 

Ralf Alley did a good comparison (with pro and cons) of VPC WarBRD gimbal and Warthog gimbal.

 

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Don't forget that Warthog implicate in buy a dedicated rudder pedal, a hidden cost.

 

But since you have a TWCS throttle can get only Warthog stick (~$210 in Amazon) and use the paddle rudder in TWCS.

 

Hello Sokol,

 

Yes that's what I'm using as a rudder - the TWCS paddle.

(Never was much a fan of stick twisting.)

 

Well I always have seen TM Cougars and Warthogs as high quality products.

 

But now, to be honest I'm looking at Virpil; (when of course I decide to pull the trigger, and I dind't quite understood their availability yet).

Because I'm getting tired of plastic gimbal related issues, and an Warthog is already an expensive product from my point of view to the buyer have to deal with it.

 

Right now, I'm deciding exactly wath kind of lube I'll be putting at the T.16000M gimbal, and at the TWCS rails (inclined to synthetic 5w40 motor oil in this one)...

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Nothing to by tighten for "fix" T.16000M gimbal, the play is due plastic parts wear.

Increase spring tension, possible with MOD like for X-52 - but installed inside, will increase the wear rate.

 

T.16000M gimbal is a low cost version of Warthog gimbal.

 

 

Ralf Alley did a good comparison (with pro and cons) of VPC WarBRD gimbal and Warthog gimbal.

 

 

What ? So soon ? This is only 8 months old !

 

Are you sure, because it feels as if something might be a little bit loosen inside, as within that center play / wobble, there aren't inputs... those only start when the spring tension starts.

 

Interesting vídeos by the way.

 

I'm tempted to use KY Jelly on stick's gimbal as I'm not sure I can get an adequate silicone grease easily... but as it the KY Jelly is made of water, I don't know if the stick's main spring would like it along the time.

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I any case look inside, are 4 bolts holding a plate that keep gimbal and spring in place (see in the above linked video), look if some are not loose, this can cause play in gimbal "ball".

 

But this bolts position is trick, if are tight much or less will shift the position of magnet relative to HALL sensor, and may the sensor reading end before gimbal move all the way - my T.16000M (old green model) came with this "end course mechanical deadzone" from factory, happens with another users too, are a old topic there about.

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I any case look inside, are 4 bolts holding a plate that keep gimbal and spring in place (see in the above linked video), look if some are not loose, this can cause play in gimbal "ball".

 

But this bolts position is trick, if are tight much or less will shift the position of magnet relative to HALL sensor, and may the sensor reading end before gimbal move all the way - my T.16000M (old green model) came with this "end course mechanical deadzone" from factory, happens with another users too, are a old topic there about.

 

Thank you for the advices.

 

I'm yet to gather the courage to eventually open the stick gimbal mechanism.

(Already tweaked with the previous one Top Gun Afterburner twice or so in the past.)

 

I guess KY Jelly will have a wait, and must buy some kind of silicone grease, whichever it might be.

 

I wish Virpil had an higher production rate though.

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Need your advice people:

 

Moments ago I went searching the stores around me for some "silicone grease" for my T.16000M plastics gimbal.

 

Essentialy what I've found available was (all meant for bearings maintenance):

 

- SKF silicone grease with soaped lithium base / mineral oil;

- some other 3 in 1 silicone grease with lithium also;

- decathlon store, teflon based silicon grease.

 

So which one do you recommend for the plastic gimbal ?

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The best for joystick is Nyogel 767A dampening grease. VKB use similar product in Gladiator Mk.II (non PRO) gimbal.

 

Here the guy used (in TWCS) lithium grease:

 

 

Here silicone grease:

 

 

When use Nyogel 767A:

 

 

I've read about Nyogel, however a product like that has to be ordered from the web, and I'm looking for something quicker to get.

 

I'm mainly concered with the T.16000 stick gimbal wear, and consequently center play / wobble in long therm.

 

So, should I go with teflon grease or lithium grease ?

Some people claim lithium grease also contains petrol derivates, wich could harm plastics...

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