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Dynamic stall/spin characterstic of DCS WW2 fighters


Kwiatek

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I was quite long time off from playing sims ( busy with RL flying wink.gif ) but now i got some time and back to DCS and BOX. I compare both game regarding flight physics expecially dynamic stall and spin and i have to say to BOX is more close what i think to RL expercience.

 

 

Im actually flying M-18B Dromader ( 1000 HP radial engine - firefight plane) also Zlin 526 F ( aerobatic plane old fashion ) and Mustang Midget - so i got some experience with both heavy planes with big engine and prop ( M18B is like smaller P-47 tongue.gif ) and also smaller aerobatic planes.

 

 

I tried DCS D-9, P-51 and 109 K-4 also F-86 Sabe ( i dont have others yet) and i must say that regarding stall/spin characterstic expecially dynaminal ones the closest to me is F-86. P-51 is quite good but i think still it got problem with dynamical stall/spin with engine working expecially in right side. Other got even more problems.

 

I think that DCS flight physic could got some problem with prop planes at power regarding stall/spin characterstic. It is like rotating prop ( engine) cause some stop power for spin/stall of plane. I really tried to rape planes in different manuvers ( loops, hard climbing turns etc) and i think these planes behave much to forgiving.

 

Trying the same in BOX planes and they behave much more what i expected - more natural - there is no such block tendecy casued by rotataing prop ( engine).

 

 

Look here i found some videos with crash of similar aircracft beacuse of dynamic stall and spin:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its really hard to reproduce similar actions with DCS WW2 planes other hand in BOX is more accurate here.


Edited by Kwiatek
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When testing in DCS, make sure you are using low RPM and boost.

In the air-shows they never use the combat high engine settings that we use in games. This is because in real life they need to preserve the aircraft.

 

Even Nick Gray, who owns the fighter collection, says the highest boost level he has ever flown in his Mark 14 Spitfire is just +14lb boost. That's a long, long way off what this aircraft is rated for in combat.

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i wish the overall FM for all prop birds got an update in dcs and that they had another look at torque, lift, drag, thrust, energy loss with stalls, spins, drag and lift with flaps, drag with slips...etc. no doubt there is room for improvement. the question is just, how plausible it is that the devs will use this room.

i guess unlikely, as as of late they did the opposite and made compromises in fidelity, see spitfire overheating or groundhandling.

 

might be that part of the problem is the community itself. many armchair warriors who never had the chance to experience real flight themselves, at least in depth, complain that planes are to hard to fly, too unstable, too easy to spin etc. they dont want to have to use rudder etc....i think even nowadays trainer aircraft are more dangerous to fly than the current warbirds in dcs. and here we are in 2018 where its still possible to take off in 2000hp piston engines without the absolute need to use any rudder inputs or touch down in a complete sideslip without getting punished....spins? forget it.


Edited by birdstrike
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Almost no aircraft in DCS really get into a developed spin where the aircraft wont rescue itself if you leave the controls alone.... Not sure what it is but in all the warbirds they seem to just go nose down and transition more into a vertical rolling at which point all you have to do is pull the nose up out of the dive. I'm no expert but sometimes it makes me wonder why people were/are so afraid of stalling aircraft irl because if it was this easy I think alot of people might still be alive today that aren't.

 

Maybe its an engine limitation, maybe its just the state of modern simulation... IIRC the other game isnt much better. The 190 there spins over all axes seemingly randomly but other than that its no more dangerous than in DCS, provided you get used to flying with rubber bands instead of steel cables for your control linkages.

 

Who knows... The flat spin in the F-14 preview looked decent... maybe there it will be different.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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Almost no aircraft in DCS really get into a developed spin where the aircraft wont rescue itself if you leave the controls alone.... Not sure what it is but in all the warbirds they seem to just go nose down and transition more into a vertical rolling at which point all you have to do is pull the nose up out of the dive. I'm no expert but sometimes it makes me wonder why people were/are so afraid of stalling aircraft irl because if it was this easy I think alot of people might still be alive today that aren't.

 

 

 

Belive me in real life pilots afraid of stall and spin at low altitude expecially these whose flying such beast like M-18B ( 1000 HP big 4 bladed prop and with water load - take off mass 5000 kg) - why? Beacause there were many deadly accidents during flights expecially spins during deep turn ( both with water load and after drop water when they want to see back how they hit the fire).

And M-18B got really quite long and big wings area ( 40 m2, wingspan - near 18 m )

 

I tried to do many brutal manouvers in DCS WW2 planes and my conclusion is they are much too forgive for such beasts. BOX is much more close to beliveable for me.

 

 

I tried also DCS F-86 Sabre and im really positive here - these plane is much more beliveable regarding stall and spins to me.

 

 

I think in DCS could be problem for game engine with some props effect contecting with stall/spin behavoiur of these planes. F-86 is jet engine and behave much more naturally to me.

 

 

Similar problem i see with take offs - WW2 planes in DCS behave in some ascpets too mechanical - like game engine got some problem with some effetcs to compesate it.


Edited by Kwiatek
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Not sure what it is but in all the warbirds they seem to just go nose down and transition more into a vertical rolling at which point all you have to do is pull the nose up out of the dive. I'm no expert but sometimes it makes me wonder why people were/are so afraid of stalling aircraft irl because if it was this easy I think alot of people might still be alive today that aren't.

 

+1. It's so easy, I also occasionally wonder why wartime pilots were afraid of it.

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Probably because you dont experience spin yourself. Your desk cant pull any G's and your chair is not spinning when you throw yourself into a spin.

Though you should the latter one, might be fun ;)

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Whether you feel it or not, most of the aircraft won't spin unless you deliberately put them into one, and once they are in they wont keep spinning unless you use control inputs to aggravate the spin. Even just centreing the controls is enough to recover usually.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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Interesting remarks Kwiatek !

 

I always follow your posts / thread also at the IL-2 forums, because you pick interesting stuff based on RL experience, even if not in exactly the same aircraft.

 

I also find the same way regarding stall / spin characteristics in DCS, but honestly the spin recovery is also just too benign in IL-2, and surprisingly I am finding this sort of "out-of-envelope" characteristic a lot more thrilling and comparable to their real life described ones in War Thunder ( SIM mode !!! ).

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Whether you feel it or not, most of the aircraft won't spin unless you deliberately put them into one, and once they are in they wont keep spinning unless you use control inputs to aggravate the spin. Even just centreing the controls is enough to recover usually.

 

Oh, I'm not questioning that. Merely disputing the opinion as to why wartime pilots were afraid of it. Perspective of sitting in front of monitor and in real aircraft and experiencing everything with your body is fairly different.

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Whether you feel it or not, most of the aircraft won't spin unless you deliberately put them into one, and once they are in they wont keep spinning unless you use control inputs to aggravate the spin. Even just centreing the controls is enough to recover usually.

 

You mean, IRL, or in this game ?

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The first 25 seconds of that video are equivalent to every DCS warbird pilot's first 3 months of flying - "this was an airplane!" ... :lol:

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

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I can't begin to count the number of times I've gotten myself into a progressive stall when I first started out.

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Funnily enough my experience is the opposite, as I'm a pilot my approach was always of being careful since day one fulfilling as much as possible procedures so learning curve doesn't extend unnecessarily due to errors I could easily avoid. Don't remember spinning the aircraft out of my attempts in doing so on purpose.

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

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Problem with DCS is that You could really rape 109 or Fw 190 even sometimes P-51 on Your controls where IRL Your plane would be stall and spin like the hell. Such spin in low alt means mostly dead.

 

 

I tried rellly horiible things expecially in D-9 and K-4 and there is no afraid of such things.

 

 

These videos which i posted show that real planes could got spin even without violenty and brutal controls actions - just only some pilot errors ( not brutal actions at all).

 

 

Thats why DCS prop planes fell for me as a real pilot that are flying too easy and too forgiving way in many sitautions where IRL probably most of such actions would be mean deadly spin ( at low alt).

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Problem with DCS is that You could really rape 109 or Fw 190 even sometimes P-51 on Your controls where IRL Your plane would be stall and spin like the hell. Such spin in low alt means mostly dead.

 

 

I tried rellly horiible things expecially in D-9 and K-4 and there is no afraid of such things.

 

 

These videos which i posted show that real planes could got spin even without violenty and brutal controls actions - just only some pilot errors ( not brutal actions at all).

 

 

Thats why DCS prop planes fell for me as a real pilot that are flying too easy and too forgiving way in many sitautions where IRL probably most of such actions would be mean deadly spin ( at low alt).

Maybe it has something to do with the "new" control response system which mimics pilot force and only let you move what would be "humanly possible", or so it's said.

 

 

I remember the times of the 109 with direct and real control in which people broke wings like hell because they didn't manage to care about how many G's they were pulling. But I already had my long stick back then and it was gorgeous to fly like that because I could pull whatever I wanted when I wanted but I had control over it cause of the long stick. Drawback is the lack of FFB in most modern sticks. Maybe the somewhat lack of control due to the human force modelling do prevent many cases of overcontrol and so going out of the envelope manoeuvres.

 

S!


Edited by Ala13_ManOWar

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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for me as a real pilot

 

OK, so what are your credentials then? How many high-powered single engine taildraggers have you flown IRL, and which types? Have you ever flown any WW2 warbirds?

The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of.

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OK, so what are your credentials then? How many high-powered single engine taildraggers have you flown IRL, and which types? Have you ever flown any WW2 warbirds?
I think he already said in the first post. I don't think we all have to show our credentials about RL experience, do we?

 

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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When I started out, I think every time I tried to go into a turn I stalled. I honestly thought the sim was completely insane :huh:

 

It took a while to learn how to use the controls gently, and to pay attention to the signs that stall is impending. Of course, going nose first into the ground each time meant going through the harrowing experience of trying to take off again without winding up 100 yards off the runway, somewhere in the weeds :doh: so I learned to take my time, pay attention - and learn. But those were the worst of the consequences of making a mistake, with which I had to contend.

 

I had a colleague who was a pilot, and here in Germany you have to renew your license yearly, so you are almost always connected to a club or school for sharing experience and training.

 

He said one of the instructors would always do finishing with the students who had just gotten their first license, but also many who had had them for a while. He would go up with them up to like 5000 feet and have them circle the airfield at an ever increasing banking angle until they experience a wing-stall and flipped out of the turn. He made them experience how they got there and what it felt like, and how to recover. That's the kind of training every pilot really needs to do.

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I think he already said in the first post. I don't think we all have to show our credentials about RL experience, do we?

 

My apologies to you both, because he indeed did! And while showing credentials is of course voluntary, doing so does IMHO lend credence to one's claims. Which is why I asked ;)

The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of.

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My apologies to you both, because he indeed did! And while showing credentials is of course voluntary, doing so does IMHO lend credence to one's claims. Which is why I asked ;)
Don't worry :smilewink: .

 

 

About flying experience, well, yes and no. I've been simming now since ¿30? years ago (how old I am :doh:) and PPL(A) since ~10 years ago though I no longer fly due to disease, but I'm plenty of friends and people I know in the business. For instance one of them which is a former firefighter pilot and recently retired. He do know a few things about high powered taildraggers, thousands of hours in them, but I showed him the simulator (and I think my rig and config is a good one, even featuring a long stick) and he didn't like at all. I mean, he's a highly experienced pilot but he lacks the experience of the simulator and how things are done differently without the seat of your pants feeling. I guess he could learn if interested on it, but just put straightforward into a simulator didn't make the trick. So well, I obviously have lower experience than him in RL, like insignificant compared to that, but I do know sims and how they work since ever, do you think his word saying he doesn't like it the time (once) he tried is better than mine with a very limited real experience but plenty of sim?

 

 

So it depends on many factors, every opinion should be taken with a pinch of salt, though obviously RL experience (plus sim experience) do work, but I can tell you I wouldn't appreciate DCS or any sim the way I do if by the time I got my license I wouldn't be plenty of experience in sims and not the other way around which not always happens to everybody. So well, I don't believe a pilot's license in necessary to fly a sim :lol: , but it helps appreciate the product though not always do work. Everything's relative.

 

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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