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Will server hosts be able to "ban" JESTER in MP?


QuiGon

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Sorry if that has been asked or even answered somewhere, but I wonder if it will be possible for server hosts (or mission makers) to disable JESTER in multiplayer? I recognize that JESTER is a pretty awesome feature, especially for those that don't fly in multiplayer, but there are also purists that wan't to fight man vs man and fly on servers where AI support will not be allowed. Will this be possible (e.g. a special option for F-14s in the mission editor to disable JESTER for that particular aicraft)?


Edited by QuiGon

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Yeah, let's force people to wait ages for someone to jump in their backseat, even if that someone will probably be a noob, or possibly even a troll and fire off all the Phoenixes at friendlies. Sounds like fun and total, pure realism....NOT!

 

Sarcasm aside, I flew 2 seaters in RoF a lot. The player could "lock" the gunner's position. Whenever I forgot to, someone jumped in there, wasted all the ammo, or just shot up my own plane. And the backseat of the F-14 is a lot more complex than a Bristol F2B...

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Yeah, let's force people to wait ages for someone to jump in their backseat, even if that someone will probably be a noob, or possibly even a troll and fire off all the Phoenixes at friendlies. Sounds like fun and total, pure realism....NOT!

 

Sarcasm aside, I flew 2 seaters in RoF a lot. The player could "lock" the gunner's position. Whenever I forgot to, someone jumped in there, wasted all the ammo, or just shot up my own plane. And the backseat of the F-14 is a lot more complex than a Bristol F2B...

I'm not thinking about the normal fun and open public servers here. My questions is more targeted to event and tournament servers and similar more closed environments where assists of any kind (including AI assists like JESTER) are not welcomed.

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Don't really think this is necessary.

 

I mean, you're fighting a two-place jet so you'll have your choice to go up against a pretty good team with JESTER in the pit or else a really good team with two real brains.

 

I don't know if JESTER will have a means by which you can adjust skill level, but maybe the better option would be where server admins can lock JESTER at a specific level? Maybe JESTER can only ever be "Average"? But maybe "Random" might be more realistic?

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For me it's not about how good JESTER is. It's about him beeing artifical and as a server host I want to be able to take this artificial element out of the game for certain events where I only want to have actual player skills, regardless if they are good or bad.

 

If you don't have a need for JESTER beeing disabled, then that's alright, but I definitely have that need as a server hoster, so I would be happy if that option could be implemented.


Edited by QuiGon

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This has to one of the single dumbest things people are asking for. Once the Tomcat releases, I bet we will see people bitch about Jester, when they get killed by an F-14 in a gun fight.

 

 

For me it's not about how good JESTER is. It's about him beeing artifical and as a server host I want to be able to take this artificial element out of the game for certain events where I only want to have actual player skills, regardless if they are good or bad.

 

If you don't have a need for JESTER beeing disabled, then that's fine for you, but I definitely have that need as a server hoster, so I would be happy if that option could be implemented.

 

 

If you're hosting a tournament, you can explicitly tell people what they may or may not do. E.g. In SATAL you're only allowed 4 Fox 3's and no 120C's. It's not a server side setting. It's simply, if you break that rule, you're disqualified. You can do the same.

 

"Tomcat tourney, bring your own RIO or you can't partake."

 

It is that easy.


Edited by umkhunto
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This has to one of the single dumbest things people are asking for. Once the Tomcat releases, I bet we will see people bitch about Jester, when they get killed by an F-14 in a gun fight.

That's the very reason why I would like to have the option to disable JESTER, so people will have to face actual human pilots (or RIOs rather).

 

If you're hosting a tournament, you can explicitly tell people what they may or may not do. E.g. In SATAL you're only allowed 4 Fox 3's and no 120C's. It's not a server side setting. It's simply, if you break that rule, you're disqualified. You can do the same.

 

"Tomcat tourney, bring your own RIO or you can't partake."

 

It is that easy.

That's great if you have some kind of game master that continously checks that people don't do that but that's not possible for the kind of smaller events that I host. So I would like to be able to just disable JESTER as I can disable certain weapons or other game assists (e.g. Viggen auto cartridge or M2000 INS drift).

 

If you don't need such an option why do you even care? I'm not asking for JESTER to be removed from the Tomcat entirely. I'm just asking for an optional setting to disable it for people that don't want them (just like it is possible with other game assists as well).


Edited by QuiGon

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It is an utterly horrible idea. The plane can't work without a RIO. So that means no RIO, no Tomcats. If that's such a problem, then simply do not include them as available aircraft to fly in your server/mission/tournament.

 

My jab, that people will complain about Jester, even if it was a guns kill was sarcastic. People will complain, even if Jester wasn't a factor. When their Flankers get out turned by the F-14, they will blame the AIM-54.

 

Folks are losing their minds over this, just as they did with the Viggen auto generated cartridges, that does nothing other than say: "At these coordinates there is stuff to blow up." It doesn't give anymore details than that. You know nothing of the ingress route, nor egress. It picks the closest 5 grouped units, which is very often not even a viable target. It does nothing else other than make a Viggen pilot's life a tiny bit better. As if there will suddenly be 20 Viggens taking off on BF and wiping the other team off the map.

 

 

Making it possible to block Jester being used, is simply something that shouldn't even be available.

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It is an utterly horrible idea. The plane can't work without a RIO. So that means no RIO, no Tomcats. If that's such a problem, then simply do not include them as available aircraft to fly in your server/mission/tournament.

But that's exactly what I want: "No human RIO, no Tomcat. Either you bring your RIO with you or you can't fly the Tomcat in this mission/event."

 

Folks are losing their minds over this, just as they did with the Viggen auto generated cartridges, that does nothing other than say: "At these coordinates there is stuff to blow up." It doesn't give anymore details than that. You know nothing of the ingress route, nor egress. It picks the closest 5 grouped units, which is very often not even a viable target. It does nothing else other than make a Viggen pilot's life a tiny bit better. As if there will suddenly be 20 Viggens taking off on BF and wiping the other team off the map.

The problem with the Viggen auto cartridge function is that it reveals the position of enemy units that should not be kown to the player. This is obviously not a problem for such rather arcade style events as BlueFlag where all unit positions are well known (we gadget), but it is a problem for more realistic missions/events.

 

 

Again: Just because something doesn't apply to you doesn't mean it won't apply to others!


Edited by QuiGon

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It is an utterly horrible idea. The plane can't work without a RIO. So that means no RIO, no Tomcats. If that's such a problem, then simply do not include them as available aircraft to fly in your server/mission/tournament.

 

My jab, that people will complain about Jester, even if it was a guns kill was sarcastic. People will complain, even if Jester wasn't a factor. When their Flankers get out turned by the F-14, they will blame the AIM-54.

 

Folks are losing their minds over this, just as they did with the Viggen auto generated cartridges, that does nothing other than say: "At these coordinates there is stuff to blow up." It doesn't give anymore details than that. You know nothing of the ingress route, nor egress. It picks the closest 5 grouped units, which is very often not even a viable target. It does nothing else other than make a Viggen pilot's life a tiny bit better. As if there will suddenly be 20 Viggens taking off on BF and wiping the other team off the map.

 

 

Making it possible to block Jester being used, is simply something that shouldn't even be available.

 

 

"Effing Jester!" is going to turn into a dumb, dumb meme once the jet is released. I do, however, want to see SATAL allow the Tomcat, but change their rules from six aircraft per team, to six people per team. That was a Tomcat eats up two people from the roster, and kind of gives an interesting "how many pilots is a Tomcat worth" approach towards SATAL.

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"Effing Jester!" is going to turn into a dumb, dumb meme once the jet is released. I do, however, want to see SATAL allow the Tomcat, but change their rules from six aircraft per team, to six people per team. That was a Tomcat eats up two people from the roster, and kind of gives an interesting "how many pilots is a Tomcat worth" approach towards SATAL.

That actually sounds interesting. I was thinking about this after the finals, what would happen with next year's.

 

Would there be, like you said, 6 slots for 3 Tomcats. And If so, what would the weapon restrictions be? If it's only 3 Tomcats, will it be allowed to have 4 or more AIM-54's? If they allow you to fly solo, i.e. have 6 Tomcats will that then restrict the AIM-54's to 2 or less?

 

If there has to be 2 human slots, would we see team comps where people will go 5v6? I.e. 4x F-15's/Su-27's and 1x 2 person crewed Tomcat? What about DL? If a team has F-14's, will E-2D's be provided that they could benefit from DL?

 

There's of course the Hornet too. If it has advanced to the point of having fully working JHMCS, TWS and Link16... (If it gets there.) Next year is going to be interesting.

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But that's exactly what I want: "No human RIO, no Tomcat. Either you bring your RIO with you or you can't fly the Tomcat in this mission/event."

 

 

Then that's a tournament rule, and would be pretty easy to enforce without any additional coding in the game. People have to sign up for tournaments remember, so it's as simple as only allowing people to sign up as a two man crew.

 

The only justified way for this code to be added or included is as a server side option for regular open or closed multiplayer servers, and in my opinion that would invalidate the whole point of flying in this beautiful plane when you don't have a team mate.

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Then that's a tournament rule, and would be pretty easy to enforce without any additional coding in the game. People have to sign up for tournaments remember, so it's as simple as only allowing people to sign up as a two man crew.

Well, I guess tournaments were a bad example then, because those things don't apply to the type of missions/events I host.

 

So, if I could just get an answer from the devs, if they have implemented such an option or not, that would be great, as this would make things a lot easier.

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If they did add it, I guess its your lucky day. If they did not, I dont think they will. There is probably only a handful of cases like you (not meant in a bad way) and I doubt it will be worth the effort, because I have to agree with the rest, regardless of how small your event or mission is, its pretty easy to keep it regulated even before you start up the sim.

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That actually sounds interesting. I was thinking about this after the finals, what would happen with next year's.

 

Would there be, like you said, 6 slots for 3 Tomcats. And If so, what would the weapon restrictions be? If it's only 3 Tomcats, will it be allowed to have 4 or more AIM-54's? If they allow you to fly solo, i.e. have 6 Tomcats will that then restrict the AIM-54's to 2 or less?

 

If there has to be 2 human slots, would we see team comps where people will go 5v6? I.e. 4x F-15's/Su-27's and 1x 2 person crewed Tomcat? What about DL? If a team has F-14's, will E-2D's be provided that they could benefit from DL?

 

There's of course the Hornet too. If it has advanced to the point of having fully working JHMCS, TWS and Link16... (If it gets there.) Next year is going to be interesting.

 

 

See, now you're going to lay in bed thinking about the amazing strategizing that could go down if SATAL gets "creative" with their rules next year.

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If they did add it, I guess its your lucky day. If they did not, I dont think they will. There is probably only a handful of cases like you (not meant in a bad way) and I doubt it will be worth the effort, because I have to agree with the rest, regardless of how small your event or mission is, its pretty easy to keep it regulated even before you start up the sim.

I doubt that there are many cases of people that want to prohibit the use of autogenerated data cartridges for the Viggen, but Heatblur still implemented it. It doesn't just depend on how many people need a feature, but also on how difficult it is to implement it. If it's just one line of code to implement the option to disable JESTER (e.g. setting some value from 1 to 0) then I see no reason not to implement it. If it would cause a lot of work, then I would not want it either as there are indeed more important things to work on.

 

All I'm asking for is a statement from the devs if they plan on implementing such an option (or maybe already did so). If they don't have any such intentions then so be it. It would be a nice feature to have, but it's not worth the hassle if it would require a lot of work.


Edited by QuiGon

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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

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For the record I agree with Quigon that there are definitely times that restricting the use of Jester would be beneficial... For all of the reasons stated.. And while I wouldn't want a huge amount of time dedicated to it, if it could be a simple checkbox choice that isn't hugely difficult to code then yes please.

 

Also for the record, umkhuntu you really need to step back and be a bit more civil.. Stating that someone's idea "is the dumbest request ever" and a "horrible idea" and the rest of the drivel you have provided is rude to say the least. If you have something constructive to say, great, but you don't have to be a complete jerk about it.

 

I am frankly amazed that Quigon put up with you at all.

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"Stupid OP Jester!" "It's not fair, Jester made it not a fair fight"

 

I can hear the excuses now..

 

 

Really, I'm going to go home tonight and make "Effing Jester!!(?)!" memes.

I don't play PvP anymore specifically because I got tired of hearing/seeing the stupid BS from actual humans when things didn't go their way. At least with PvE you know that it's the AI, and the only thing you can do is laugh.

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Really, I'm going to go home tonight and make "Effing Jester!!(?)!" memes.

I don't play PvP anymore specifically because I got tired of hearing/seeing the stupid BS from actual humans when things didn't go their way. At least with PvE you know that it's the AI, and the only thing you can do is laugh.

 

My favorite was ...

 

"I don't recognize that last kill because you shot me with an Amraam at 3 miles"

 

"Yeah, and?"

 

"MORON, what part of advanced MEDIUM range air to air missile did you not get? MEDIUM RANGE"

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This is essentially <amusing> standard DCS thread 1C:

 

<Insert DCS New plane or technology here> will grossly unbalance <Insert some server here> and thus make it unfair every time I get shot down so please insert <waste of developer time control measure here> to ensure I never have to justify why I got shot down.

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This is essentially <amusing> standard DCS thread 1C:

 

<Insert DCS New plane or technology here> will grossly unbalance <Insert some server here> and thus make it unfair every time I get shot down so please insert <waste of developer time control measure here> to ensure I never have to justify why I got shot down.

Yeah, I don't really understand where that comes from. I had no balancing issues on my mind when I started this thread. :dunno:

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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

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