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Standard Altimeter mapping?


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Is there Standard Altimeter mapping to make it easier rather than having to redial it in everytime?

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Would make it easier than reaching down to scroll a few digits every time

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Just out of interest then, what do they use?

 

WB.

 

 

 

When entering a training area/airspace or AOR in theater they would get briefed an altimeter on check in and they would keep it regardless of altitude. Generally speaking, the brevity word "ANGELS" implies the same altimeter setting is to be used above and below transition altitude (vs using flight levels etc).

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That's civvy altimetry, exactly what Jeepyb just said they wouldn't use.

 

I took Jeepyb as being sarcastic. So the military do not use QNH, ONE and QFE then. Do they have special altimeters?

 

 

I know the the air force here use these settings. The only difference would be that civvies use the term flight level when set to QNE. The military use the term Angels to refer to flight level.

 

This is my understanding, please correct me if I am wrong.:pilotfly:

 

Sorry, it was Frederf I was referring to as being sarcastic not Jeepyb.


Edited by Skwinty

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When entering a training area/airspace or AOR in theater they would get briefed an altimeter on check in and they would keep it regardless of altitude. Generally speaking, the brevity word "ANGELS" implies the same altimeter setting is to be used above and below transition altitude (vs using flight levels etc).

 

Appreciate that feedback.

 

Although my original question did not state so, my question about Standard pressure settings about the TA was based on not staying in an AOR or training area, but on flying beyond the training /combat environment.

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I took Jeepyb as being sarcastic. So the military do not use QNH, ONE and QFE then. Do they have special altimeters?

 

 

I know the the air force here use these settings. The only difference would be that civvies use the term flight level when set to QNE. The military use the term Angels to refer to flight level.

 

This is my understanding, please correct me if I am wrong.:pilotfly:

 

Sorry, it was Frederf I was referring to as being sarcastic not Jeepyb.

 

They'll use them sometimes, but not in a tactical environment. That's what both Frederf and Jeepyb refer to.

 

edit:// looks like I'm contributing to a topic derail. Apologies. I won't say anymore on this matter.

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I took Jeepyb as being sarcastic. So the military do not use QNH, ONE and QFE then. Do they have special altimeters?

 

 

I know the the air force here use these settings. The only difference would be that civvies use the term flight level when set to QNE. The military use the term Angels to refer to flight level.

 

This is my understanding, please correct me if I am wrong.:pilotfly:

 

Sorry, it was Frederf I was referring to as being sarcastic not Jeepyb.

 

I corrected that as soon as I realised my mistake.:huh:thumbup:

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QNH or more specifically force QNH (because individual QNHs will depend on your point of origin) is the only thing that makes much sense in DCS. When in full spectrum operations you want everyone's altimeter to read as near as practical to their actual altitudes. A lot of tactical airplanes will show their geometric altitudes instead of barometric when in ground attack modes.

 

Low level operations may differ from a force-wide QNH because of practical needs or high level operations probably don't use flight levels and you could guess why. F-15s at FL350 get vectored to some bogey at 35,000' are they above or below? Do they change altimeter setting when they respond to tasking? Do they have enough room to post hole above these 18,000' mountains? You see the problems.

 

Even if in real operations a variety of altimeter conventions are used, nothing in DCS suggests using anything but the most accurate (to geometric) altimeter setting possible always and every time. The AWACS or ATC or tanker or mission waypoints won't refer to flight levels or cherubs ever.

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To add to the above, If flying using Flight Levels (i.e. above the transition altitude - as Airliners do) then aircraft will fly with the altimeter setting of 29.92 inches (or 1013.25 mm ). So you would report your height as FL 310 if flying at 31,000 ft. Useful so that ALL aircraft in the same airspace on the same altimeter setting will miss each other if flying at different Levels. - the principle of how Air Traffic works.

 

A Transition Altitude is the level at which an aircraft's height changes from being measured in feet-above-sea level to a 'Flight Level'. Clearly for aircraft landing & taking off, the need to measure height (not Flight Level) is required as you get nearer the ground. In these cases aircraft will now set the altimeter setting that gives a more accurate AGL reading for their altimeter. QNH is a setting that will make your altimeter read 0 ft at Sea Level, whereas QFE setting will make your altimeter read 0 on the ground at that airfield (or tactical range). These QNH/QFE settings are updated hourly by the local ATC (or ship controller).

 

For the military, where fast jets etc need to operate in a Block of airspace that goes below the transition altitude (e.g surface to 35,000ft), then rather than use 29.92, a local area QNH will be set in the cockpit WHEN entering that tactical airspace. (reverting to the 29.92 when leaving & RTB whilst transiting thru' normal airspace.

 

Just to add to the workload of the pilots, I think (used to be the case with the UK Sea Harrier) the Sea Harrier own height displayed on the radar display (B-scope) was a Flight Level, the height in the Heads Up Display was a height totally dependant on whatever Altimeter setting had been dialled in by the pilot! So a pilot flying on something other than 29.92 would have 2 different heights displayed and could easily find himself violating separation against another aircraft if not clever.

 

I'm sure some DCS player is probably a real life ATC controller, so can correct my over simplistic post if incorrect.

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Thanks for the clarity.

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No guys we use real altimeters in military aviation.

 

When I first started flying DCS I was really thrown off by all the references I found to setting the altimeter so that it reads "0" when on the gorund. THIS IS WRONG. You set the altimeter so that your gauge reads what the aircrafts altitude is above sea level.

 

To find this altitude you look at the airport diagram chart. Pay attention to where you are on the airfield because airports aren't perfectly flat. The elevation at one end of a runway can be very different than the other end and both can be different from the published "field elevation". These altitudes are provided so that you can last minute check your latitude when you taxi out onto the runway.

 

If you're on the carrier you set your altimeter so that your altitude to 62 feet.

 

That's for uncontrolled airfields. If there is a tower you always put in what they give you for an altimeter setting. THIS ENSURES THAT ALL THE AIRCRAFT UNDER THEIR CONTROL ARE ON THE SAME ALTIMETER. Cannot stress that enough. Very important operating principle.

 

Controllers should NOT be giving out altitudes that result in an altimeter reading when the aircraft is on the ground.

 

These things are set up that was so that when you are at for example 2,500 feet and that's the minimum safe altitude you won't run into any granite clouds. If the altimeter setting puts the actual ground a few hundred feet above where it's supposed to be, no-viz instrument approaches will be..... abbreviated by unplanned terrestrial interface.

 

All the same rules apply. FL180 and above, altimeter goes to 29.92.

 

ANGELS has nothing to do with altimeter settings. Gotta get that out of your head. Angels is just brevity for altitude in thousands of feet. Angels 6 = 6 thousand feet. Nothing more.

 

NO U.S. military branch nor anyone anywhere in civilian aviation uses QNH or QFE. Only inches of mercury. Standard. (When we're running the airspace, if not we usually have a cheat sheet on the kneeboard to convert to inches mercury - and we're always running the airspace).

 

What else here.....

 

Every controller will give you an altimeter setting, again that's to put everyone in his piece of airspace on the same page....

 

Transition altitudes are the demarcation from controller-fed local altimeter to the standard 29.92 - not what FLIGHTS-ON said.

 

To reiterate, you shouldn't ever be setting your altimeter to "0".

 

That is a very americentric post...

 

DCS isnt ''wrong''. Setting QFE was and still is SOP in some part of the world (like the one initially modelled in the game: Georgia).

 

QFE is also used in many instances in civilian aviation. Most soaring club I have flown with used it in their airspace for example.

 

Millibars are used everywhere. In Canada, military controllers are expected to give altimeter setting in Millibars to HAWKs and Alfajets but in inches of mercury to CF-18s for example.

 

Look in any US or NATO pub you want, by definition ANGELS is Height of friendly aircraft in thousands of feet from mean sea level (MSL). MSL = set QNH. ANGELS has everything to do with altimeter setting. ANGELS 20 is not the same as FL200.


Edited by Jeepyb

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At the risk of repeating myself, leveraging my 18 years of involvement in U.S. military aviation operations, I'll say this again slowly:

 

We.

Don't.

Use.

QNH or QFE.

 

If someone is using some old system that still uses these standards for data entry, they're getting inHg and referring to a cheater table.

 

WE AINT GOT NO QUEEN - MURICA

 

In fact all this is obsolete:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_code

 

Your love of minutae is admirable, if useless.

 

Way to not address any of my points... Didn't think the literacy rate in the US military was still so low.


Edited by Jeepyb

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April 2017, US Army Publication TC 3-04.5 Instrument Flight for Army Aviators

ALTIMETER SETTING PROCEDURES

8-91. There are three different methods of reporting the altimeter measurements and four different units of measure used to express altimeter settings. For aircraft having only one type of altimeter scale or for areas where the altimeter setting is not converted for the aviator, the FIH contains conversion tables. Crew members must understand how to apply the conversions before flight into airspace using other than inches of mercury/atmosphere pressure at nautical height (QNH) for altimeter settings. Refer to FLIP AP for specific altimeter setting procedures for each country.

 

ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE AT NAUTICAL HEIGHT SETTINGS

8-92. A QNH altimeter setting represents the pressure that would, in theory, exist at sea level at that location by measuring the surface pressure and correcting to sea-level pressure for a standard day. Set the reported QNH when descending through, or operating below, the published MSL transition level. With the proper QNH set, the altimeter will indicate the height above MSL. All DOD approach criteria are based on using QNH altimeter settings.

 

STANDARD ALTIMETER SETTINGS

8-93. The standard altimeter (QNE) is used to indicate the height above an imaginary plane called the standard datum plane, also known as FL0. The established altimeter setting at FL0 is 29.92 inches of mercury, or 1013.2 millibars. Set QNE (29.92) when climbing through or operating above the transition altitude.

 

ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE AT FIELD ELEVATION SETTINGS

8-94. Atmospheric pressure at field elevation (QFE) is the altimeter setting issued to aircraft to indicate the AGL height above the airport. With the proper QFE set, the altimeter should indicate zero on the ground. QFE is commonly used by the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy in the United Kingdom and in many parts of the Pacific and Eastern Europe.

 

US military operators understand Q-code and even if they didn't refer to these Q-code concepts by their Q name they would be using the concepts all the same. The weather and atmosphere specialists will know several more than just these three. It hasn't been that long since examples I know of where the US military used QFE operationally not connected to any other nation. I don't know of any contemporary ones though.

 

Q-code pressures are general concepts without specified units. There's nothing inherently "millibars" about Q-this or "inches mercury" about Q-that. The pressures are what they are even if expressed it in elephant-weights per tennis court.

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Wow – what a healthy (& friendly, I hope) debate.

 

Actually I suspect we are pretty close to being in violent agreement. Much of this differing of opinion is just a language issue. Here in Europe, QNH & QFE are still very much alive AND used by USAFE and USN when operating over here. Actually the NATOPs refers to these regional Pressure sett as “Local Altimeter Setting” – which is probably a more sensible phrase. Yes US military will always fly in inches, where as most of the rest fly in mm – but as USMC Trev says, most pilots/GCI controllers all have cheat cards to hand.

 

In the USA most training takes place in sanitised airspace (permanent Danger Areas for example). Here participating aircraft will fly in altitudes measured in Feet and on a Local Altimeter Setting (USMC Trev, please correct me if I am wrong). This has the added advantage of “training as you fight” so that in addition to your own altitude being referred to in feet (“Angels”) and radio chatter talking about bogeys/bandits will be discussed in feet.

The SOP I always worked to as a GCI was a request for “height” required an answer in either angels or feet, whereas a request (unusual) for a “level” would prompt a Flight Level answer. In more congested Airspace (Europe) training would often take place with “interlopers” (non-play civilian) traffic crossing the play area. A clever way to distinguish these to an already overloaded single seat fighter pilot would be to refer to this interloper’s height as a Flight Level. But as I think we ALL agree, Flight Levels is a term reserved for use outside training areas above the transition altitude. (Transition Altitude varies throughout the world, I think (as previously posted) it’s 18,000 ft in the USA, but from memory the Persian Gulf is way down at 6000ft).

 

Part of the “fun” (challenge!!) of DCS is learning how to use your A2A radar and in what Height Block you want to look. In real world control of modern radar fitted jets, the pre sortie briefing from the lead pilot usually includes: “not be too helpful” with the Height information. Clearly in peacetime, using a civilian ATC radar a GCI controller will see a mode 3C response on a target and could provide this to his Fighter. For training (just like DCS) the student pilot need to learn how to use his radar to find the target, so the GCI will either provide a “ no height” , or a simple “low, medium, or High” call – similar to the level of detail that a Navy or AWACs controller would be limited to. (the low, medium, high can also be called out as “Block 0,1, 2, 3” with the number referring to 10’s of thousands of feet).

 

As a relative new comer to these forums – “thank you”, really enjoying these chats/ debates.

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Much of this differing of opinion is just a language issue

 

Exactly. SOPs vary alot around the world. I've seen QNH & QFE used at home and while deployed all the time.

 

Idk why USMC_Trev persists in dumping more US-Centric useless info in this thread but I think the initial post has been answered.

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Wow, now I remember why I don't get too involved in forums (fora?) anymore.

 

Anyway, I think the original posters question has been answered with lots of good info on altimeter setting procedures.

 

After 18 years service as an RAF air traffic controller I think I have a pretty good understanding of QNH, QFE, SAS, transition altitude and flight levels etc.

 

My question in response to Frederf's assertion that ' You're in a tactical arena. Don't use 29.92; real USN pilots wouldn't.' was a genuine question to find out how the USN operates if they don't use 29.92. I understand there will be a locally valid pressure setting mostly updated with hourly met observations but do USN aircraft fly this throughout the mission? I'd have thought that having everybody on the same pressure setting ie the SAS of 29.92 once above a prescribed transition altitude would be the easiest way of ensuring everyone was 'singing from the same hymn sheet'? This also helps to avoid possible collisions in IMC conditions by ensuring adequate separation criteria.

 

Just interested to know how carrier ops differs from land based ops with which I'm reasonably familiar even if it was a few years since I was 'operational'. And glad I don't have to spend a few minutes before each DCS session working out the transition layer and quadrantals! :)

 

Regards,

 

WB.

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No guys we use real altimeters in military aviation.

 

When I first started flying DCS I was really thrown off by all the references I found to setting the altimeter so that it reads "0" when on the gorund. THIS IS WRONG. You set the altimeter so that your gauge reads what the aircrafts altitude is above sea level.

 

To find this altitude you look at the airport diagram chart. Pay attention to where you are on the airfield because airports aren't perfectly flat. The elevation at one end of a runway can be very different than the other end and both can be different from the published "field elevation". These altitudes are provided so that you can last minute check your latitude when you taxi out onto the runway.

 

If you're on the carrier you set your altimeter so that your altitude to 62 feet.

 

That's for uncontrolled airfields. If there is a tower you always put in what they give you for an altimeter setting. THIS ENSURES THAT ALL THE AIRCRAFT UNDER THEIR CONTROL ARE ON THE SAME ALTIMETER. Cannot stress that enough. Very important operating principle.

 

Controllers should NOT be giving out altitudes that result in an altimeter reading when the aircraft is on the ground.

 

These things are set up that was so that when you are at for example 2,500 feet and that's the minimum safe altitude you won't run into any granite clouds. If the altimeter setting puts the actual ground a few hundred feet above where it's supposed to be, no-viz instrument approaches will be..... abbreviated by unplanned terrestrial interface.

 

All the same rules apply. FL180 and above, altimeter goes to 29.92.

 

ANGELS has nothing to do with altimeter settings. Gotta get that out of your head. Angels is just brevity for altitude in thousands of feet. Angels 6 = 6 thousand feet. Nothing more.

 

NO U.S. military branch nor anyone anywhere in civilian aviation uses QNH or QFE. Only inches of mercury. Standard. (When we're running the airspace, if not we usually have a cheat sheet on the kneeboard to convert to inches mercury - and we're always running the airspace).

 

What else here.....

 

Every controller will give you an altimeter setting, again that's to put everyone in his piece of airspace on the same page....

 

Transition altitudes are the demarcation from controller-fed local altimeter to the standard 29.92 - not what FLIGHTS-ON said.

 

To reiterate, you shouldn't ever be setting your altimeter to "0".

 

You set local altimeter on the ground (or ship) with RADALT to the HUD. Local going to and from the airspace, except above 180, then 29.92.

 

Most airspace I've flown in used local, however some MOAs use 29.92 (Compass Lake near KPAM, for example). "It depends" would be the answer on that. Switching altimeter settings is typically part of the "FENCE" check.

 

I've never set field elevation using the altimeter. Always what ATIS or Ground gives you.

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