Force_Feedback Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 Finally they're doing some real manoeuvering and not that lame stuff the Raptor did (FCS upgrade?). http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/06/01/214339/video-f-22-raptors-power-and-agility-displayed-at-airshow.html See that thing dance, makes you dizzy, even from the video. 1 Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teknetinium Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 to be honest Su-35 is dancing better, 51st PVO Discord SATAC YouTube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 No FF, they just basically worked out a show sequence and got permission for it. That's all it was. And Tek ... Su-35 couldn't dance better if its life depended on it which - oh hey! It does! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilotasso Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 The west is much more conservative regarding safety at shows, it produces more boring displays compared to the mig and Su displays, I've always suspected the F-22 could do unconventional manuevers (though I do admit Su still looks wilder) but to be honest I dont judge aircraft perfomance by airshow perfomance. I refrain to select my preferrences based on this, I would have to sit in the pit and try out the equipment myself. I would ultimatly choose the plane with the best Weapon/SA over visual candy. [sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic] My PC specs below:Case: Corsair 400C PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T) RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4 GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Force_Feedback Posted June 12, 2007 Author Share Posted June 12, 2007 to be honest Su-35 is dancing better, Ofcourse it is, their show is way better even though the su-35 is heavier, but this is the F-22 with all the delicate coatings and engines. Seems like they worked out the quirks performance stability wise. Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bSr.LCsta Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 is the raptor a bird or a dinosaur? As someone who will never see the combat side of any of these jets, I would much rather watch a Suhkoi or a Mig. That performance was just very boring IMO, but they do get some nice vapor going in some of those moves. Check this shot out! http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1209273/L/ is this ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nscode Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 And Tek ... Su-35 couldn't dance better if its life depended on it which - oh hey! It does! It could, does, and all that without being shy for a year before doing anything ;) Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boneski Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 The Master of the Thrust Vector Wars.... The 22 Would have a tuff time working the playground with this guy regarding BFM http://www.alert5.com/2005/08/mig-29-ovt-demo-video-wmv.html My mission is to fly, fight, and win. o-:|:-o What I do is sometimes get a tin of soup, heat it up, poach an egg in it, serve that with a pork pie sausage roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Scythe Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 The Master of the Thrust Vector Wars.... The 22 Would have a tuff time working the playground with this guy regarding BFM I dunno, some of the craziest displays have been put up by the Flanker family IMO. Anyway, BFM (or more appropriately ACM) nowadays basically amounts to who shoots the other guy first with an X-ray or Archer. A simple matter of looking and shooting - so it's not like somebody would have trouble working anyone else over. Just for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RvETito Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 Dancing? That's a helicopter trade mark. Why all fast movers keep on trying to fly as helos? So embarassing...:D:D:D "See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89. =RvE= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TucksonSonny Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 Finally they're doing some real manoeuvering and not that lame stuff the Raptor did (FCS upgrade?). http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/06/01/214339/video-f-22-raptors-power-and-agility-displayed-at-airshow.html See that thing dance, makes you dizzy, even from the video. I am a little bit worried about the huge flames in afterburner. I suspect these yellow flames are not so cool (the initial plan was to cool the flames which would show rather the blue flames). The new pirate-like systems do love this kind of heat sources. Anyway I think that this raptor do own the ef2k in dogfight (please guys, easy with the rep points :D ) Anyhow the demo-Mig-35 looked more impressive to me! DELL Intel® Core™ i7 Processor 940 2,93 GHz @3 GHz, 8 MB cache | 8.192 MB 1.067 MHz Tri Channel DDR3 | 512 MB ATI® Radeon™ 4850 | 500 GB 7200 rpm Serial ATA | Samsung SM 2693 HM 25.5 " | HOTAS Cougar Thrustmaster | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Force_Feedback Posted June 12, 2007 Author Share Posted June 12, 2007 I never stated that I was impressed or awed, just that it finally gives a more energetic performance instead of the lame routines before this show. PS, what makes you think the Russian birds don't have properly practiced and approved airshow routines? And what makes you think they display their full maneuvrability potential? For instance, the Su-30MKI never did a full yawing reversion of flight direction in horizontal flight in any airshows, yet, the Indian air force uses this maneuver in training flights. Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Kurr Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 To me this F-22 demo looked a bit sluggish and slow, but maybe that's because I have seen my share of MiG-29(OVT), Su-30MK and Su-37 demos over the years. The Russians are still figuring out what their aircraft can do, they haven't reached the limits yet, resulting in many unnamed new manouvers in their demos each year. I also heard of the Indians doing stuff with their Su-30's which the Russians haven't done before. There is a video out there which shows an Indian Su-30K (without TVC and canards) doing a Kulbit. Dutch Flanker Display Team | LLTM 2010 Tiger Spirit Award Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nellen_mellen Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 There's something that you're missing in criticizing the F-22 Demo. More Control. You can clearly see in all of these SU and MiG demos that the pilot either doesnt have control during the manuver (kulbit) or must spend significant time regaining control over the aircraft (cobra and others). There is a difference between taking an aircraft up and throwing it around in the sky, or taking it up and flying it at the very edge of what it is capable of doing, while maintaining control. Being out of control in a fight for any amount of time is not a good thing. While the F-22 isn't quite doing manuvers to an extreme like the russians, the manuvers that the Raptor pilot is doing are being done with complete pilot control, and can be changed or modified. This is in part because of the massive thrust that the Raptor has, and more importantly, the advanced FCS that interperets, combines, and translates pilot input across all control surfaces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tflash Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 It is indeed very easy to acquire visually from all aspects ;) But seriously, this is what I would call an AFM! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Kurr Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 There's something that you're missing in criticizing the F-22 Demo. More Control. You can clearly see in all of these SU and MiG demos that the pilot either doesnt have control during the manuver (kulbit) or must spend significant time regaining control over the aircraft (cobra and others). There is a difference between taking an aircraft up and throwing it around in the sky, or taking it up and flying it at the very edge of what it is capable of doing, while maintaining control. Being out of control in a fight for any amount of time is not a good thing. While the F-22 isn't quite doing manuvers to an extreme like the russians, the manuvers that the Raptor pilot is doing are being done with complete pilot control, and can be changed or modified. This is in part because of the massive thrust that the Raptor has, and more importantly, the advanced FCS that interperets, combines, and translates pilot input across all control surfaces. I don't quite agree. In the tailslide the Raptor does, you can clearly see the elevons deflect fully in opposite directions (ie one up, the other down). This is the same in other extreme maneuvers it does, such as the vertical take-off. This looks like the computer doesn't know what to do, or it needs such extreme deflections to keep the aircraft stable. In the Flankers and the MiG-29OVT, you don't see this kind of deflection, the control surfaces seem to be almost neutral throughout the maneuver. Dutch Flanker Display Team | LLTM 2010 Tiger Spirit Award Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Scythe Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 I don't quite agree. In the tailslide the Raptor does, you can clearly see the elevons deflect fully in opposite directions (ie one up, the other down). This is the same in other extreme maneuvers it does, such as the vertical take-off. This looks like the computer doesn't know what to do, or it needs such extreme deflections to keep the aircraft stable. In the Flankers and the MiG-29OVT, you don't see this kind of deflection, the control surfaces seem to be almost neutral throughout the maneuver. You're basing your conclusion, that the computer "doesn't know what to do," based on the deflection of some control surfaces? Right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 I don't quite agree. In the tailslide the Raptor does, you can clearly see the elevons deflect fully in opposite directions (ie one up, the other down). This is the same in other extreme maneuvers it does, such as the vertical take-off. This looks like the computer doesn't know what to do, or it needs such extreme deflections to keep the aircraft stable. What it looks like is that you haven't seen an FBW at work before. In the Flankers and the MiG-29OVT, you don't see this kind of deflection, the control surfaces seem to be almost neutral throughout the maneuver. You don't see the FBW doing so on an Airbus either ... hint: They're all very stable aircraft. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Force_Feedback Posted June 12, 2007 Author Share Posted June 12, 2007 You're basing your conclusion, that the computer "doesn't know what to do," based on the deflection of some control surfaces? Right. You're basing your conclusion, that the Russian TVC jets lack controllability and fbw systems based on a sluggish ('controllable') airshow performance by the F-22? At what point can you see 'loss of control' in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o54wA52UUo&mode=related&search= ? And the MKI has a lower thrust/weight ratio than the F-22, plus it's at least 1.5 times heavier (more momentum), but loss of control? Only time it loast control was when it scraped the ground in 1999, that was loss of control. Since when are the mig-29 and su-30/35 stable? I don't see a big 'Now, featuring stable aircraft configuration for you scared customers' on their site... Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmonaut Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 That was a good performance but the Russian's thrust vectoring fighters would still steal the show. And the Russian pilots seem to have full control of their aircraft at all times even in the most extreme maneuvers but then again I have never flown one so how would I know ;) Air shows are one thing though and combat is a completely different idea, the F22 is the worlds best and just seeing it at an air show would be cool but in terms of crowd pleasing maneuvers then the MiG-29(OVT), SuXX etc wins hands down. 1 Cozmo. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Minimum effort, maximum satisfaction. CDDS Tutorial Version 3. | Main Screen Mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diveplane Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 to much hipe on this waste of tax money F22 jet imo.. russian aircraft rule, hit them with a hammer they still run .. https://www.youtube.com/user/diveplane11 DCS Audio Modding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Scythe Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 to much hipe on this waste of tax money F22 jet imo.. russian aircraft rule, hit them with a hammer they still run .. Not hammer - slammer. Hit them with a slammer. You're basing your conclusion, that the Russian TVC jets lack controllability and fbw systems based on a sluggish ('controllable') airshow performance by the F-22? At what point can you see 'loss of control' in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o54wA52UUo&mode=related&search= ? And the MKI has a lower thrust/weight ratio than the F-22, plus it's at least 1.5 times heavier (more momentum), but loss of control? Only time it loast control was when it scraped the ground in 1999, that was loss of control. Since when are the mig-29 and su-30/35 stable? I don't see a big 'Now, featuring stable aircraft configuration for you scared customers' on their site... Who on earth are you responding to? Me? I never said Russian aircraft lose control - that was another guy in this thread. I never even mention a "loss of control" once. The only statement I made about Russian aircraft is I basically said that some of the most entertaining solo performances in an airshow were given by the Russian Flanker family. The only thing I explicitly stated is how ridiculous the logic that you can judge an aircraft's FBW system judging by how much the control surfaces deflect during an airshow. Anyway, I'm out of this thread. I don't even know why people start F-22 threads - it always degenerates into a pissing contest even when nobody's looking for a fight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilotasso Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 I am a little bit worried about the huge flames in afterburner. I suspect these yellow flames are not so cool (the initial plan was to cool the flames which would show rather the blue flames). The new pirate-like systems do love this kind of heat sources. Anyway I think that this raptor do own the ef2k in dogfight (please guys, easy with the rep points :D ) Anyhow the demo-Mig-35 looked more impressive to me! Actualy blue flames are the hotest. Lower efficiency or lower turbine heat operation generates red and yelow flames, it also depends a tad on the fuel type (has to do with light spectometry of chemicals) but blue always indicates very high temperature operation. [sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic] My PC specs below:Case: Corsair 400C PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T) RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4 GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogue_blade Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 ahem id just like to throw the word 'typhoon' into this. ive seen one live typhoon performance and was in awe. ive seen migs which were cool... never seen su's or f22 so i cant say but the typhoon kicks anus [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Force_Feedback Posted June 12, 2007 Author Share Posted June 12, 2007 Seriousely, the only country that may ever face the F-22 is Venezuela, and 16 or so Su-30MKVs won't do them much good. But boy are those planes handy for non fictional scenarios, like shooting rockets at rebels, shooting down cokeheads and other drug runners. (they can smuggle all the weed they want though, as long as it's good, but all that coke/heroin-whatever crap should be shot down) So relax about the F-22, it will do what it was designed for, and being agile is only an extra, for the time the pilot runs out of missiles (mission planner's head will roll). It does what it says for 200 mil $, and if it did not, nobody would say it out loud anyway because of the money involved. So the F-22 is good no matter what, and if not, then we might know in 30 years This airshow vid is good IMHO, it finally shows (no, not everything) what the Raptor can do, and seeing planes dance in the sky is always nice. Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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