Can RWR tell friend or foe?

[Ven]

I asked this in bug section but haven't got a single reply so I'm asking again here because I know you guys know the answer.

 

In F15 or A10, my wingmen and nearby friendlies always shows up as primary threat in diamond. Wingmen shows up as primary threat when I give him the order to attack... so when he turns on his radar. This defeats the whole purpose because now I have to sort through those small icons and guess which enemy unit is true primary threat.

 

 

Is this the way it is in real RWR? It can't tell friend or foe? Or is this a bug in LOMAC?

[504Goon]

No, you can't.

 

Unless you are flying the F15/A10 on a server/mission which has only the NATO aircraft (besides German Mig-29) on the blue, and the Sukhois/Migs on the red side.

 

Basically you cannot IFF with RWR/TEWS, but knowing the OPFOR aircraft type, you can determine if they are hostile or not.

[355th_Paulie]

Go to "your hard drive here":\Program Files\Ubisoft\Eagle Dynamics\Lock On\Doc, theres something that resembles a manual.

 

It explains alot about the use of RWR.

[504Goon]

Real men burn the manuals. And if they are on the hard drive, they use a hammer to "erase" the manual.

 

Go to "your hard drive here":\Program Files\Ubisoft\Eagle Dynamics\Lock On\Doc, theres something that resembles a manual.

[Ven]

Go to "your hard drive here":\Program Files\Ubisoft\Eagle Dynamics\Lock On\Doc, theres something that resembles a manual.

 

It explains alot about the use of RWR.

 

Page 182 right? I've read it before and read it again. Doesn't explain the question I asked. Have you read it yourself?

 

Thanks for the answer Goon but I don't have problem identifying target as friend or foe. But determining which enemy target is primary is different story. Often, I find the answer to that once a missile is inbound.

[S77th-GOYA]

Is this the way it is in real RWR? It can't tell friend or foe? Or is this a bug in LOMAC?

 

I doubt you are going to get a definitive answer, but I would very much doubt the RWR displays of the US aircraft would show a friendly radar as the primary threat. I wouldn't call it a bug, just mis-modelling. Just as the RWRs don't show any friendly ground radars.

 

This is about as good an answer as you can hope to find without joining the USAF. (from fas.org)

 

The AN/ALQ-135 (TEWS) is an internally mounted active jamming system carried on the F-15C and F-15E designed to defeat electronic threats. It is comprised of Bands 1&2 (low-med freq), Band 3 (med-high freq), and (future) Band 1.5 (low-med freq). The system provides low band jamming capability for the F-15E, contributing to increased survivability against low band threats.

 

The AN/ALQ-128 Electronic Warfare Warning Set (EWWS) is a countermeasures receiver set carried on the F-15C/E. The F-15's electronic warfare system provides both threat warning and automatic countermeasures against selected threats. The F-15's ALQ-135(V) internal countermeasures system acts on information from the Loral AN/ALR-56C and Magnavox AN/ALQ-128 radar warning suites and provides active jamming against enemy radar threats.

 

The ALR-56C Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) detects a broad range of incoming radar signals, identifies and characterizes the probable source as a specific friend or threat, and alerts the aircrew through the TEWS display. It also manages companion AN/ALE-45 and AN/ALQ-135 countermeasures systems. An F-15 Tactical Electronic Warfare System (TEWS) Operational Assessment report for the ALR-56C RWR (Suite 1 Operational Flight Program - OFP) was released by AFOTEC in Mar 95. RWR deficiencies included the following areas: memory capacity, processor throughput, threat ambiguity resolution, and false alarms. Future RWR improvements requested via the F-15 OFP update process could not be met (Suite 4 and beyond) unless a new processor and memory capacity upgrade program was initiated. Specific RWR SORD requirements were not met in Suite 2&3 due to current processor/memory limitations in selected threat environments.

 

The AN/ALE-45 Counter Measures Dispensing System (CMD) provides the capability of automatic or manual response to radar guided and infrared homing weapons. It will dispense a combination of chaff, flare, etc. payloads based upon the Operational Flight Program's evaluation.

[Kula66]

I automatic or manual response to radar guided and infrared homing weapons. It will dispense a combination of chaff, flare, etc. payloads based upon the Operational Flight Program's evaluation.

 

So how does it detect inbound IR missiles (rhetorical question) ... and can we have it modelled in LO please ;)

[NotiA10]

detection of IR missiles ? i dont think so

[tflash]

Anyway, Ven points to a real issue, I often have some problems online with exactly that: a friendly is designated as the primary threat. Since the TEWS is a vital piece of equipment for the F-15 online, such an avionics upgrade is high on our wishlist but hey, this is war. We have to fight it as it comes.

 

You can cope with this by building good SA before entering the fight. What most of us try to do I guess is evade direct confrontation, circling a little bit around the fight to positively identify alle parties in the nearby airspace before taking action. Using the combined info of TWS radar and TEWS often gives a good picture about who is who.

[nscode]

detection of IR missiles ? i dont think so

 

well, not with the RWR anyway...

[Allochtoon]

how about just asking awacs if its friend or foe.

[tflash]

On the RAF server this is exactly what I do, but when the heat's on i the merge, you really do not have time to call an awacs when you see a primary threat flashing on your TEWS!

[Ven]

how about just asking awacs if its friend or foe.

 

Again... I guess I kinda titled the thread to be a bit misleading but simply identifying friend or foe is not what I'm having trouble with. I don't have much problem telling who's friend and who's threat. But RWR identifying friendlies as primary threat is making that feature obsolete. I got bunch of SAMs to my 12 o'clock, couple of migs to 1 o'clock, and few more Su-27's to my 10 o'clock. I want the RWR to tell me which is actually getting ready to shoot me down. Not my wingmen. I thought that was purpose of primary threat indicator.

[Allochtoon]

Again... I guess I kinda titled the thread to be a bit misleading but simply identifying friend or foe is not what I'm having trouble with. I don't have much problem telling who's friend and who's threat. But RWR identifying friendlies as primary threat is making that feature obsolete. I got bunch of SAMs to my 12 o'clock, couple of migs to 1 o'clock, and few more Su-27's to my 10 o'clock. I want the RWR to tell me which is actually getting ready to shoot me down. Not my wingmen. I thought that was purpose of primary threat indicator.

 

I know of the problem, i just suggested a 'solution'.

[Ven]

Now I remember IRONHAND's tutorial on RWR. In it, I think he toggled a filter on the RWR. I can't remember exactly (I'm downloading it again right now) but I believe it turned off the radars in search mode. I'm sure this will eliminate friendlies from the RWR and thus only showing enemy radars (that have locked me up) as primary. I guess this could be a workaround but have another question regarding this "filter".

 

Would this filter indicate enemy aircraft that's locked on to me using HOJ? My guess is no since HOJ is passive? Just wanted to confirm.

[tflash]

You mean shift-R, yes you could use that.

[S77th-GOYA]

My guess is no since HOJ is passive?

 

An HOJ lock from a Russian a/c isn't passive.

 

Chizh's post about it:

 

http://forum.lockon.ru/showpost.php?p=93065&postcount=11

[3Sqn_Fudd]

AWACS can't tell you which aircraft is close enough to be a threat, and it doesn't handle multiple aircraft all that well.

 

True Story .... I once was in a furball and I called the AWACS for the nearest bandit, they gave me the vector for a British Airways A321 flight that was landing some where in the vicinity of Paraguay. :D

 

 

I don't know how it saw it... I think they were data linked to another AWACS in south america

[Mugatu]

Think he was messing with your mind :)

[3Sqn_Fudd]

...they're pretty limited in their abilities. :)

 

It's cause they're drunk...listen to that chicks voice... tell me shes not :music_whistling:

[Maciver]

You can cope with this by building good SA before entering the fight. What most of us try to do I guess is evade direct confrontation, circling a little bit around the fight to positively identify alle parties in the nearby airspace before taking action. Using the combined info of TWS radar and TEWS often gives a good picture about who is who.

 

 

This is really your best tool. Use the information you have to develop SA and engage.

 

I think the that chick in the awacs is drunk. It helps, but you can't rely on it. I lost my SA the other day, no thanks to her drunk ass, and hit a friendly. I was towing 2 bandits into some friendlys for help. The friendlys where still 40 or so nm out. The 2 bandits where close on my 6. 12-15nm. They where cold at first, then i got TEWS primary threat indication behind me. AWACS told me that both of them had merged with me. So i put on the breaks and pulled around as fast as i could to see an aircraft about to go over me. With the information i had, I was sure it was one of them, so i switched to bore and shot him down. It was a friendly.

 

They really need to fix IFF for the 15. Your best defense to the lack of IFF in the american planes is infact SA.

[GGTharos]

LOMAC's AWACS has a number of issues which are, basically, this:

 

1. Hot/Cold/Flanking calls are wrong. They are based purely on closure, not on aspect. That means if you have a guy chasing you, on your tail, and you're pulling away from him, he's 'cold'. If he's maintaining closure close to 0, he's 'flanking'.

 

2. AWACS does not track the 'big picture' and has no 'memory' ... meaning it will ONLY report the closest target it can *see* when you ask for it. So a target near you that has *just* beamed the AWACS is something that for the AWACS 'does not exist', rather than 'yeah we had a contact there near you'.

 

3. Back to the 'big picture'. The AWACS reporting the closest bandit to you is neat, but in a multiple aircraft scenario it is so utterly useless, and so easily fooled - all you have to do is send one plane near the defenders to bait'em, and make sure the others go around far enough to never be reported.

[egaRim]

In [...] A10, my wingmen [...] always shows up as primary threat in diamond.

 

I would be suspicous if your A10-wingman showed up on RWR :D

 

 

 

(well, I won't win a price for good quoting on that one :music_whistling:)

[Ven]

I would be suspicous if your A10-wingman showed up on RWR :D

 

 

 

(well, I won't win a price for good quoting on that one :music_whistling:)

 

Well I was wondering who would catch that. Didn't bother to edit since I think I got my point across but I guess you take the cake.

 

What I'm having trouble with SA is without primary threat indicator, how do I tell which threat I should deal with first? Do you guys memorize the radar strength of every fighter and SAM units?

 

Right now, the default missions I'm playing, most of enemy units are hidden. I can cheat and make them visible to research beforehand what I'm gonna be faced with. Then I have no problem winning the battle. But I don't want to play this way. I like to be surprised and be able to deal with it.

 

On one of the F15 campaign missions, I saw 4 hostile contacts. 2 Mig25's and 2 Mig23's. All at same bearing but Mig25's showed up closer on RWR. But frankly, I don't know which radar strength is stronger so I have no idea which ones are closer to me and will be firing first. I turn my radar on and I only see 2. I couldn't find the other 2 on my radar so I thought there were behind the ones I see and I engaged the two. But actually, the Mig23's were closer but higher altitude and they shot me down. The whole time, some friendly F16 was marked as primary threat until Mig23's locked and fired.

 

So yea, I flew again and completed the mission but now I know where they are and it's not a good feeling winning that way. Maybe I should memorize the radar strength of every radar?

[GGTharos]

You should have an idea of what aircraft has a more powerful radar ... because Antenna size is dictated by necessity by nose cone size, you can *reasonably* expect a physically larger aircraft to have a more powerful signal. It isn't /always/ true, but in general it's a rule of thumb that shouldn't dissapoint you.

 

Lastly, if you have multiples, no matter where they are, make sure you try to find and track'em all - and remember, it is again likely that you will have to get much closer to detect an aircraft that is smaller, or flying low (ie. look-down situation for your radar)