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Proper jammer usage


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Anyone willing to educate me on proper jammer usage? I did read Falcon guide on jammer usage which basically said use jammer before enemy aquires you and turn it off when its inside the burn through range. Does this work same way in LockOn?

 

I'm familiar with how to launch in HOJ. Just want to learn about how to evade HOJ.

 

Assume I'm in F15. I'm supposed to turn on the jammer before enemy has a lock? Now he launches a missile in HOJ mode. Am I supposed to turn the jammer off at this point or keep it on? And is the tactic different when your up against F15 using AIM-120 in HOJ versus AIM-7 in HOJ? Howabout russian using HOJ?

 

A detailed info on how exactly HOJ works with different types of opponents and missiles (active vs semi-active) would be great. Or a link where I can get the info.

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Two basic ways to use your jammer in this game as it is not very sophisticated at all.

 

1) Turn it on and leave it on. If your enemy gets burn through the last thing you want to worry about is turning your jammer off. Once you are RTB'ing turn it off so that your allies can see you and sort you out of the Furball.

 

2.) Turn it on and off periodically or rapidly to ensure that noone will lock you if you can. Many people dont like this method but life isnt fair is it.

 

The second method may get you tossed out of a few servers so read the brief before you do it. Also the second method will not ensure that you will not get shot down or locked it just makes it harder in my oppinion , which is the whole point. Bottom line its totally up to you , whatever works for you out there. I personally use the first method because I dont have time to press the ECM button 12 gazillion times.:D

 

HOJ:For SARH missles

Homing on Jammer mode is one of my weaker subjects of BVR and aerial engagements but Ill give it a go. Once you turn your jammer on your enemy can see your jamming strobe and he has the option to lock your jamming strobe. If he does you will not know it until burn through (like i said this is a weak subject for me so I could be wrong). Once this happens many of your opponents are smart enough to fire their missles while locked in HOJ mode well before burn through. What this does is it allows the missle to travel to your general area and once burn through is accomplished his missle will have your location and correct accordingly giving you a minimal amount of time to react if the shot is timed well and you arent in a defensive posture to anticipate your opponents shot. At this time you will hear many audible warnings :

 

1) a lock tone

2) missle inbound tone

3) your aircraft exploding if you mess up

 

From this point jammers dont matter any more so your back to basic Air to Air.

Ill post more on this subject later Im at work and need to get busy. Im sure someone will post more on this if they havent already and correct my mistakes as well.

 

happy hunting,

TEX

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2.) Turn it on and off periodically or rapidly to ensure that noone will lock you if you can. Many people dont like this method but life isnt fair is it.

 

do not do number 2. Not only I, but everyone else on the server will get very pissed at you!

 

And yes groove, here comes a flame war! :doh:

DCS Wishlist: 1) FIX THE DAMN RIVERS!!! 2) Spherical or cylindrical panorama view projection. 3) Enhanced input options (action upon button release, etc). 4) Aircraft flight parameter dump upon exit (stick posn, attitude, rates, accel, control volume, control-surface positions, SAS bias, etc). 5) ADS-33 maneuver courses as static objects. 6) Exposed API or exports of trim position and stick force for custom controllers. 7) Select auto multiple audio devices

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I did read the other post about ECM tactics but didn't address the specific question I was looking for.

 

Does the missile inbound via HOJ looses its lock when I turn the ECM off? Is that why ECM flashing works?

 

I don't fly online so I wont be using this against anybody. Just wondering how ECM is modeled in LOMAC.

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I use it in the following ways:

1. Disguise a heading, height change

2. Trash Missile (turn it on release chaff turn it off outside burn through range) keep and eye on the smoke trail if you can see it.

3. HOJ from hi altitude with 7Ms or 120s at max range. Not many ppl will expect a 60+ sec fight time to get them. But with friendlies flying around with jammers on all the time you can't often use it.

 

Is the burn through range (LOMAC not RL) of a 120/77 the same as for fighters or are active missiles not affected by ECM at all?

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I did read the other post about ECM tactics but didn't address the specific question I was looking for.

 

Does the missile inbound via HOJ looses its lock when I turn the ECM off? Is that why ECM flashing works?

 

I don't fly online so I wont be using this against anybody. Just wondering how ECM is modeled in LOMAC.

 

Yea , basically thats what happens Ven. When someone fires a HOJ shot at you if you were to turn your jammer off this should in theory break his lock.(i say theory because Ive never tested this) On the other hand if you blink your jammer on and off frequently this will most assuredly break his lock thus , in the case of a SARH missle, rendering the missle blind. If the missle does not receive info from its originating aircraft it will self detonate on its own. Not sure how long until this happens ... so essentially if you manage to reacquire a lock within a short amount of time you could , in theory, save yourself from wasting a missle. Hope that helps bud.:thumbup:

 

Tex

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Anyone willing to educate me on proper jammer usage? I did read Falcon guide on jammer usage which basically said use jammer before enemy aquires you and turn it off when its inside the burn through range. Does this work same way in LockOn?

 

I'm familiar with how to launch in HOJ. Just want to learn about how to evade HOJ.

 

Assume I'm in F15. I'm supposed to turn on the jammer before enemy has a lock? Now he launches a missile in HOJ mode. Am I supposed to turn the jammer off at this point or keep it on? And is the tactic different when your up against F15 using AIM-120 in HOJ versus AIM-7 in HOJ? Howabout russian using HOJ?

 

A detailed info on how exactly HOJ works with different types of opponents and missiles (active vs semi-active) would be great. Or a link where I can get the info.

 

Quite rightly you've mentioned about turing the jammer off once in the burn-through range and thats what i do but it's not a defenition for the correct or the wrong way to do it, it just works best for me once in a fight and than ''afterburner'' : I try not to use it when IR missile is inbound so i use chuffs instead.

Not a personal advise, just a some thing you might come across flying in hyperlobby.:)

I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully.

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I could quote myself from a previous thread, in wich another n00b tried to insult me, but, hey, in general I'm a nice guy, sooo, I'd suggest the following: Ven, you seem a decent person yourself, what you need to do is the following. Oh, by the way, I HAVE read the manual. Join a few servers on hyperlobby and use the different tactics allready mentioned in various threads on this forum (search button) and see what fits you best. If your not keen on flying online right now just do some offline tests using the external view to see what a missile does in various circumstances. It's all about practise and using common sense.

 

I hope I have addressed your question accordingly this time.

 

Paulie

 

p.s. If you want to practice online in a 1v1, I would be more than happy to help out, just P.M. me.

:D

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In the russian planes you get immediate lock warning when you're locked in HOJ. You can check on your RWR how far is the bandit locking you and decide for your actions. I'll remind you that you can lock a jammer at any distance, so always look for the strength of the signal that has locked you. In many cases it's not something you should worry about. As been said, once within burn through you'd better turn it off. Use notch instead if you want to break lock.

 

Another subject that hasn't been mentioned are SAMs. It works good against their locking range, not sure whether it works that way for all of them but I had a recent experience with a Kub site which was unable to lock me within it's kill zone.

"See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89.

=RvE=

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In the russian planes you get immediate lock warning when you're locked in HOJ.

 

I thought that was only true of the F15/A10. AFAIK Russian jets get no lock warning when locked while jamming and also get delayed missile launch warnings.

 

Ive not tested this out though as i never fly with jammers.

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Ok, I should have been more specific. You'll get immediate lock warning if a russian fighter is HOJ on you. You'll only get a spike if it's F-15.

"See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89.

=RvE=

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First people here and there will claim this and that about ECM. Let me tell you a simple fact. No Pilot, Tech, Weps Designer or Developer will ever tell you how and why ECM really works. In most sectors this is highly Classified all they way up to Magic.

 

Nor will you be given any definitive tactical information that you can take to the bank. People will say this is right or wrong... ban you from their game because they can't win using their pet tactic that they "feel" is realistic... when in fact it has nothing to do with reality.

 

Most people just want to win their dogfights and claim they know something when they don’t know any more then anyone else. They just set the rules for their severs and so one… and that’s fair… it is their sever…

 

ECM and ECCM information is a life and death kind of thing. So a game will not rise to the standard in its implementation of ECM and ECCM.

 

For a game... ECM On or ECM Off will lower a game missile's chance of hitting you by looking up a PK value in a database. Same is true for detection. Changing the default Probability of Kill number and reducing it by some factor either statically or dynamically, using some other factors decided by the game developers...

 

So tactically regarding how you would use ECM in Lock on…. It all depends. Lock on as well as some other games work pretty well using some for of real world tactics.

 

With that said… when you become Fenced in… ECM On / Radar On is very proper.. People seem to have this idea that you are giving away your location when you turn on your ECM. That’s silly. There is no hiding in a Radar environment if you are at altitude!

 

If you are pressing into a Radar environment. They know you are there already. So your best tactic is to deny the radar data on your true posit. And use your Radar to see what’s out there… this will help give you a picture and you can develop your tactic..

 

If you are flying as a singleton you have a different MO then you would have flying in a multiship.

 

So yes… sure you will show up on a display somewhere… but in most cases your data tag will be useless to the person looking at it.

 

So in Lock on Falcon and most other games… Flying with ECM on is a very proper tactic. In a multi-ship flight ECM can even be used to draw attention away from a shooter or your strikers in your package.

 

Regarding Home on Jam Countermeasures… It’s very proper to pulse your counter measures. That’s a great simulation of real world activity. In Lock On you can not program or mode select how ECM will respond to the threat in the game. It’s either on or off.

 

People read declassified info on how the Russian and American ECM should work and handcuff the player by saying that the ECM is on and doing all the mode switch automatically so no strobing allowed on sever X because that cheating… That’s more then likely BS!

 

As was stated above… Most games are reading from a database from hit probability data. ECM is just a logic switch. (Not a Lock on developer not sure of its implementation.)

 

On my Stick setup I have a Countermeasures mode that will pulse the ECM 3 times in 3 sec burst then deploy 2 Chaff 5 milliseconds sep 3 sec pause (giving the jet time to be in a new location and attitude ) 5 more ECM pulses on and off and ending with another Chaff burst. This simulates a Counter measures preset. It works really well.

 

Remember most people don’t fly or build very realistic missions… they think they do but they don’t use AWACS, they Don’t use Ground Radio EW sites… and so on. They put very unrealistic handicaps in their mission for what ever reason they want. But don’t let that limit how you use the tools in the game.

 

Words like Strobing and Missile spamming are just code words that people use to blur the fact that they don’t like losing a game that they feel they have mastered.

 

Multiple missile firing and ECM cycling are part of what goes on in real air combat.

New tactics are developed to deal with new and old threats. Do you think at War College an instructor will say, hey guys don’t do XYZ because our adversaries don’t know how to defeat it… And we want to keep our Air War fair….

 

Some people want to fly a jet sim like a World War 2 sim… that’s where the problems starts…

 

 

I hope that helps. Sorry for any typos I wrote this pretty fast and did not have time to proof read it…

 

-Bones

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My mission is to fly, fight, and win. o-:|:-o What I do is sometimes get a tin of soup, heat it up, poach an egg in it, serve that with a pork pie sausage roll.

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An interesting point that will no doubt go unanswered, except for various opinions, is whether a friendly radar spike would generate a jam signal from the spiked aircraft. Taking the F-15's TEWS system as the example, determining friend or foe from the spike is one of its purposes of the system. It is illogical for a spike determined to be friendly to cause the system to jam that spike in response.

 

And if LOMAC was modeled that way, it might keep Cali's head from exploding.

 

:smartass:

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No, it isn't. RWRs are fallible things that can mis-classify an incoming signal, and they can't read the thoughts of whoever's sitting behind that radar either; and the enemy might be using the same or similar radar parameters as your guys for whatever reason ... what business, then, does the EW system have, if any, to classify the spike as 'friend or foe'?

 

The EW system's job is quite simple: A spike is a missile launch is a jammer trigger. You leave the nails alone on the other hand.

 

The F-22's EW system might well be the only one that -might- be capable of such a feat, but then it fuses information from more sources than just the RWR to help make its determination.

 

It is illogical for a spike determined to be friendly to cause the system to jam that spike in response.

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Words like Strobing and Missile spamming are just code words that people use to blur the fact that they don’t like losing a game that they feel they have mastered.

 

On the other hand, it can be argued that if you have to resort to strobing in order to avoid getting shot at until burn-through, you really shouldn't be playing Lock On. Do you really think IRL a MiG or Eagle pilot would have the luxury denying a lock on until 13 miles?

 

Ace Combat 6 is right around the corner. Just FYI.

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On the other hand, it can be argued that if you have to resort to strobing in order to avoid getting shot at until burn-through, you really shouldn't be playing Lock On. Do you really think IRL a MiG or Eagle pilot would have the luxury denying a lock on until 13 miles?

 

Ace Combat 6 is right around the corner. Just FYI.

 

"Do you really think IRL a MiG or Eagle pilot would have the luxury denying a lock on until 13 miles?"

 

Real life has Nothing to do with this… and once everyone gets that point into there heads all the better… You can’t force your understanding of Real Air Combat onto a pc game. I will not map. It’s a pointless exercise bro!

 

Your world in this discussion is a PC game… so the answer to the question is

Yes! This is your IRL. So you develop your tactic with in the context you are in.

 

In real life combat, If I have a guy that I can't get target data on him until 13 miles nose hot, 1500knts closure My mission better have mandated that I and only I kill that jet. Same is true for the threat pilot. We must have a grudge we are trying to settle. .... because I am not going to continue to drive to that fight... That's insane.

 

I would have ended that engagement 20 miles ago (33mi out) simply with a handoff back to the control authority or using other tools that I have to get the data to acquire the target and a firing solution for weps system before the engagement put me within the threats target envelope. Or simply turn away from threat and disengage from that fight with the hope that I can out run him.

 

So you see that answer has no relation to Lock on… outside of disengagement. There is no control authority. There is not true data link. There is no answer that would map to your question and Lock On or any other PC based fight sim.

 

As for Ace Combat. It would be just as fun as Lock On I’m sure since most of the time

new computer games add features that are not found in the older games!! :pilotfly:

My mission is to fly, fight, and win. o-:|:-o What I do is sometimes get a tin of soup, heat it up, poach an egg in it, serve that with a pork pie sausage roll.

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I'd like to comment one thing about this difference in opinion in regard to ECM flashing before it gets out of hand.

 

Even when everyone's playing same game (sim), everyone has different way of enjoying it. Some like to simulate real world as much as possible and some like to adapt and push the limits of the software they're playing on. You can agree or disagree but I believe you have to respect the others way of playing. As long as everyone follows the rules... there shouldn't be a problem?

 

I was just wondering about how ECM was modeled. Don't want to go into what's right or wrong.

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Real life has Nothing to do with this… and once everyone gets that point into there heads all the better… You can’t force your understanding of Real Air Combat onto a pc game. I will not map. It’s a pointless exercise bro!

 

Real life has nothing to do with this? Last time I checked, Lock On is a SIMULATION of REAL LIFE. What happens in REAL LIFE should happen in the game, because simulations try to be REAListic. Do I have to be any more clear?

 

Your world in this discussion is a PC game… so the answer to the question is

Yes! This is your IRL. So you develop your tactic with in the context you are in.

 

In real life combat, If I have a guy that I can't get target data on him until 13 miles nose hot, 1500knts closure My mission better have mandated that I and only I kill that jet. Same is true for the threat pilot. We must have a grudge we are trying to settle. .... because I am not going to continue to drive to that fight... That's insane.

 

I would have ended that engagement 20 miles ago (33mi out) simply with a handoff back to the control authority or using other tools that I have to get the data to acquire the target and a firing solution for weps system before the engagement put me within the threats target envelope. Or simply turn away from threat and disengage from that fight with the hope that I can out run him.

 

So you see that answer has no relation to Lock on… outside of disengagement. There is no control authority. There is not true data link. There is no answer that would map to your question and Lock On or any other PC based fight sim.

 

As for Ace Combat. It would be just as fun as Lock On I’m sure since most of the time

new computer games add features that are not found in the older games!! :pilotfly:

 

Again, Ace Combat 6 is around the corner. It has no relation to REAL air combat either, nor does it try to - sounds like it'll be right up your valley.

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Real life has nothing to do with this? Last time I checked, Lock On is a SIMULATION of REAL LIFE. What happens in REAL LIFE should happen in the game, because simulations try to be REAListic. Do I have to be any more clear?

 

 

 

Again, Ace Combat 6 is around the corner. It has no relation to REAL air combat either, nor does it try to - sounds like it'll be right up your valley.

 

The Netherlands F16 that shot down the serbian Mig29 was not the first to engage him. Previous F16s had to turn back and disengage as they could not aquire him and were approaching the Migs missile range.

 

Such are real life tactics that that if are not followed you end up dead or in a court marshall hearing. Does that apply to you? Do you disengage when you dont have an overwhelming and advantageous firing solution?

 

Lockon is and always will be a very limited attempt at a construct of real life air combat. Because its scope is so narrow people will push the edge and do unrealistic things without fear of death/courtmarshall.

 

Absolutly improve the game.....but real life does not apply.

 

 

Alley....Right up you Alley

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64th "Scorpions" Aggressor Squadron

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