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EO guides R-24R?


DmitriKozlowsky

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It seems that IRST when locked guides R-24(radar versions). With radar off and EO in BVR or EO Vertical Scan, or helmet sight, assuming target lock and LA, R-24R/ER are guided to target. I get that R-77 will do also, but I figure that in WVR with EO lock, R-77 will go active (aka Pitbull) right off the rail. But R-24(AA-10 radar variants) needs radar lock, or so I thought.

I stumbled on this in Mig-29S Instant Action/Caucauss/Mig-29S Intercept. The targets are two Gazzels. In this mission the Gazzeles are able to evade R-73 and R-60 , fired from close range with EO/Helmet Sight lock, with alarming regularity.

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But R-24(AA-10 radar variants) needs radar lock, or so I thought.

 

Technically, R-27R's don't need the radar lock before launch as they are provided with a datalink and an autopilot of sorts to guide them towards the target until the seeker establishes a lock (though perhaps for such close ranges, the initial english bias might be enough I guess as the target should be within seeker range).

 

The IR guided variants don't so they do need a lock before they can be launched at a target (unless they're launched dumb for jettison purposes).


Edited by Dudikoff

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Technically, R-27R's don't need the radar lock before launch as they are provided with a datalink and an autopilot of sorts to guide them towards the target until the seeker establishes a lock (though perhaps for such close ranges, the initial english bias might be enough I guess as the target should be within seeker range).

 

I think that was contested on the forums. Before I also thought that it could launch without a lock, but apparently that data/radio-link is only for midcourse navigation updates.

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I think that was contested on the forums. Before I also thought that it could launch without a lock, but apparently that data/radio-link is only for midcourse navigation updates.

 

I actually meant to say that it can be launched without a missile seeker lock (LOAL). The radar lock would be required to provide the initial launch parameters to the missile (English Bias, initial waypoint, etc.).

 

Didn't really try to replicate launching the R-27R with the IOS lock, there are probably many WCS simplifications currently compared to the RL (and I'd have to check the RL manual first).

 

But, in theory, when you pull the trigger with a radar missile selected in TP mode (if this is supported by RL WCS, of course), the WCS might attempt to create a radar lock by slaving the radar to the IRST lock and if a lock is established (RL appears on the HUD or something), a missile could then be launched. It would take some seconds for all this to happen, though.


Edited by Dudikoff

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The IR guided variants don't so they do need a lock before they can be launched at a target (unless they're launched dumb for jettison purposes).

 

 

This is what I find the most weird. You can get a solid lock for the R long, long before the T. And yet Soviet doctrine was to fire a T then an R. Isn't that wasting most of the effective range of both missiles?

 

 

It would really make a lot of sense for the T to have a data link, so it can be guided until it can "pitbull" on IR.

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I actually meant to say that it can be launched without a missile seeker lock (LOAL). The radar lock would be required to provide the initial launch parameters to the missile (English Bias, initial waypoint, etc.).

 

I still don't think the R27 supports that. It is a semi-active missile, so you will need a lock to guide the missile. From what I have read, the radio/data-link is just to give R27 more precise information / target updates after launch to help it guide more efficiently. Not to fire blindly and then lock the target (for sneaky attacks). It would be awesome if it did but Im quite sure it can't. Otherwise pretty much any aircraft out there would fire semi-actives but lock target at the last second for a great surprise effect :)

 

Also If you can find some info that it can, please forward it to the ED team :thumbup: Would be nice with some additional tricks, since you can't even launch R-77 active guided

missile without going into a hardlock from TWS mode. ED has a former Flanker pilot on the team and also there are bunch of pilots and enthusiasts on the russian forums.

Should be quite easy to verify if this is actually possible or not.


Edited by Schmidtfire
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This is what I find the most weird. You can get a solid lock for the R long, long before the T. And yet Soviet doctrine was to fire a T then an R. Isn't that wasting most of the effective range of both missiles?

 

It would be if that was some sort of definitive rule, but it obviously isn't :)

 

Radar guided missiles aren't necessarily always launched at max range and it isn't uncommon for them to be used within visual range if you cannot get a good "tone" for your heatseeker. In such a scenario, where radar- and IR homing missiles are used in combination for increased PK, it makes sense to launch the IR version first.

JJ

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I still don't think the R27 supports that. It is a semi-active missile, so you will need a lock to guide the missile. From what I have read, the radio/data-link is just to give R27 more precise information / target updates after launch to help it guide more efficiently. Not to fire blindly and then lock the target (for sneaky attacks).t there would fire semi-actives but lock target at the last second for a great surprise effect :)

 

INS/datalink is used to allow the missile to be launched at greater range - without it, the range would be limited to the acquisition range of the SARH seeker.

 

Also If you can find some info that it can, please forward it to the ED team :thumbup: Would be nice with some additional tricks, since you can't even launch R-77 active guided

missile without going into a hardlock from TWS mode.

 

The R-77 does not need a "hard lock"(going into STT mode) for launch - its an ARH weapon and can be launched from TWS. The question is the degree to which the WCS of the MiG-29S was modified for the purpose - as far as I can gather from(what little) information available, it should be possible to engage two separate targets directly from SNP-2 mode with R-77s.

JJ

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It would be if that was some sort of definitive rule, but it obviously isn't :)

 

Radar guided missiles aren't necessarily always launched at max range and it isn't uncommon for them to be used within visual range if you cannot get a good "tone" for your heatseeker. In such a scenario, where radar- and IR homing missiles are used in combination for increased PK, it makes sense to launch the IR version first.

 

 

I know the 27T and 27ET have some uses, but usually if you're in that situation, by the time you get LA for a 27ET you're in range for a 73 anyway, and that's the better option by far. In fact, I've often had LA for 73s before LA for 27ETs.

 

 

INS/datalink is used to allow the missile to be launched at greater range - without it, the range would be limited to the acquisition range of the SARH seeker.

 

 

So why wasn't the same done to extend the range of the missile with the IR seeker, since they clearly gave it an engine and fuel capacity to fly much further than it could ever realistically acquire anything?

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I know the 27T and 27ET have some uses, but usually if you're in that situation, by the time you get LA for a 27ET you're in range for a 73 anyway, and that's the better option by far. In fact, I've often had LA for 73s before LA for 27ETs.

 

Head-on yes :) - but in rear aspect, you can get much longer acquisition range for the IR seeker and...

 

So why wasn't the same done to extend the range of the missile with the IR seeker, since they clearly gave it an engine and fuel capacity to fly much further than it could ever realistically acquire anything?

 

...thats the point of the R-27T/TE - bigger motor/burn time to chase down a fleeing target, where the R-73 would run out of juice :)

JJ

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Or just override the "LA" and fire, I have gotten more than one kill with ppl not expecting an R-27te so early... basically a long R-27te.... followed by an R-27re 5-7 seconds later... just to make sure they kick in the AB...

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I still don't think the R27 supports that. It is a semi-active missile, so you will need a lock to guide the missile. From what I have read, the radio/data-link is just to give R27 more precise information / target updates after launch to help it guide more efficiently. Not to fire blindly and then lock the target (for sneaky attacks). It would be awesome if it did but Im quite sure it can't. Otherwise pretty much any aircraft out there would fire semi-actives but lock target at the last second for a great surprise effect :)

 

Of course the R-27R/RE supports LOAL (no SEEKER lock necessary at launch), otherwise their range would make no sense since their seeker could only lock on at, I don't know, 20 km, depending on the target size.

 

But, as I said, it does require a RADAR lock by its launching platform to determine exact range and for the WCS to set up the missile parameters and tune the seeker to the guidance channel, I guess. So, this last minute lock on that you're mentioning is not possible.

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Also major backup for a heavy ECM environment vs. a radar that couldn't deal with ECM too well. Bomber ECM is also nothing to sneeze at.

 

 

 

...thats the point of the R-27T/TE - bigger motor/burn time to chase down a fleeing target, where the R-73 would run out of juice :)

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