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CVW-11 Intercept Geometry Presentation


IceFire

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Very detailed and in a very professional manner!

I wish there where more instructional videos on such aspects, like that one!

Felt like I was back in my "Falcon" days, where someone gave online lessons about fighter/ formation geometry.

:thumbup:

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Very detailed and in a very professional manner!

I wish there where more instructional videos on such aspects, like that one!

Felt like I was back in my "Falcon" days, where someone gave online lessons about fighter/ formation geometry.

:thumbup:

 

Thanks! We have some really talented people in the wing. Spiceman will be doing more of these, stay tuned!

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Matt "IceFire" Schuette



Commander In Chief United States Atlantic Command

Virtual Carrier Air Wing Eleven

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Thanks, the mix of theory with a follow on example in DCS, really helped understand the concept and taught me a lot.

 

To test my understanding, I recreated your example mission with a MiG-29 "drone" and several F-18C air spawns that approached at different Target Aspects to put theory and example into practice.

 

I was surprised how fast the intercept progressed but it went well and I later used the concept to join up with a AWACS I'd also added to the mission.

 

Might be useful to include a simple mission file for those less familiar with the ME.

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Really great vid,

 

Just been rereading Fighter Combat-Tactics and Maneuvering so good timing.

 

Good section in this book on Tactical Intercepts and much more, great book to go with your vids.

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Excellent presentation! Incredibly helpful!

 

This is why I love this hobby, so much amazing content that people produce and share. Every time I get frustrated and need a break, I start looking into the training materials that some really talented people have put together and I'm back chomping at the bit to fly again.

 

Thanks!

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Thanks guys... there’s more coming, and we’ll keep posting them as we go...

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Hope you don't mind me commenting but your 40 Aspect or a 140 Aspect as the Air force would say is too slack for a semi active missile. If you crank fully by timeout, you will be close to a 90 and in danger of losing the lock.

As a rule we used to fly a 180 by 5nm or a 160 Aspect later in my career ( Air force is from the tail so a 180 by zip is head on ). Kudos on putting the pdfs together I would just tighten up the geometry.

 

Then again if it is purely Aim120 then maybe I am wrong I am from the Semi Active era we would always be way tighter than a 140 Of the tail aspect.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Excellent presentation, that was super informative! :thumbup:

 

The DCS examples were a great way of showing these concepts in an actual environment. It's crazy how simple and easy those live examples at the end looked. Makes one appreciate how much of an art an intercept really is, and how much training it takes to get it right.

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  • 10 months later...

Great video, put the theory in to practice last weekend. Are you guys planning on putting out more instructional videos? I find them very professional and beyond the arcade level of other DCS related channels.

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Question: The concepts demonstrated and taught in the intercept geometry video are being used against what appears to be a non-maneuvering target (ie, forming up on an aircraft in formation, a tanker), but what about a maneuvering target?

 

For instance, let's look at the low TA example. If his TA at 40 miles is less than 10 deg, you kick and build by going 50 ATA cold. Then you fly your gates...if at 30 miles he is 20-30 TA, then you turn to bandit reciprocal and fly it all the way at that heading until you get to 40 ATA hot in which case you turn to collision. But what if during that time, when you are flying bandit reciprocal, he changes heading or he continually puts his nose on you (TA=0)? Do you start the process all over again when you get to the next gate and re-evaluate?

 

Also, there used to be a tick mark on the contact in the radar when you go PDSTT. It is now gone and although other people have let ED know, they can't seem to reproduce it or do anything about it. So the only way to get TA is to look at your HUD and look at his nose position in the NIRD circle it seems. Is anyone else doing it a different way?

 

 

 

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I think this is only useful for a non-maneuvering target.

 

 

 

IIRC there's a Jetstream episode where the students run thru this type of intercept, fighting for their gates etc. (I cant remember if the gate numbers are the exact same, but i assume they are.) In that episode they referenced using this in NORAD intercepts of Bear bombers, or to intercept airliners.

 

 

I think if the bandit is putting his nose on you, then you're into a whole new set of tactics. I'd put my nose on him and close until I'm within fox3 range. at that point its whatever BVR tactics you want to use (f-pole maneuver etc).

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Just a peek into the cool things we have goin on!

Enjoy the presentation!

 

Didn't watch the vid but recognize the slides, looks like the t-45 AWI pub from primary? I think it's great that you all are taking time to educate and spread knowledge. So much effort expended on studying systems, when the fun is the fight. Even then, DCS is a lot more fun as part of a section where everyone know's their responsibilities.

 

Slides kinda cut off at displacement turn, I assume you left brevity and naming of different groups & pictures, target priority, melding and sorting, how to tell if you're winning/losing and whether to merge or skate for lesson 2? Some of the default stuff would be good to include I think, like azimuth sort and range sort should be common knowledge.

 

One thing I've noticed when teaching basic intercept tactics is that even when people understand triangles, B-scope projections do not naturally produce an accurate understanding of the spacial relationships. Forgive my awful drawing, but I didn't want to post something that could violate the rule. I put the linked pic together to illustrate a few common ways it deceives people. Each is meant to show something, the second is drift when fighter heading = bandit recip. As you mentioned in your slide, this indicates that you will not intercept on current heading..

 

The fourth was to be a B-scope with associated intercept geometry explaining the terms, but then i noticed that you guys already threw one in from that pat pub that's much cleaner. As my ms paint atrocity is not legible that small, I did provide a zoomed in of that same pic. Hopefully it illistrates the point: https://imgur.com/cKmg2bK

 

I'll be curious what the response is. Not taking anything away, but this is just scratching the surface. Primary is skills training, no tactics. BVR is taught in FRS and no public documents for that. Its a great foundation though, and will put players light years ahead of where they currently are. There are some good mission type specific priorities, how they effecting sorting and melding, etc., but not really tactics. Still, the skills are progressive, have to mastter one before moving to next and such. No point discussing advantageous merge entry if you don't intercept correctly, and all if it has to be solid before you can communicate and fight as a team (which frankly should be the ultimate goal - there's nothing more fun in DCS). Interfect fundamentals, good comms, good BFM - All of ita culminates in lead/wing relationship, and the lead/support roles.

 

Are you planning to do a more of these? Often in response to somebody asking we talked about various ways to teach these concepts and tactics but its always a question of time. Perhaps getting together with a campaign builder and having the lessons and checkrides (the skillchecks are in the course material), but it always comes down to time... or lack of it. PP slides and such are great, but there's no substitute for time in the seat. You can learn geometry from a textbook, but not flying jets.

 

Anyway- I am glad to you guys are putting in the work, and look forward to seeing the response.

 

 

I think if the bandit is putting his nose on you, then you're into a whole new set of tactics. I'd put my nose on him and close until I'm within fox3 range. at that point its whatever BVR tactics you want to use (f-pole maneuver etc).

 

Not taught in this course unfortunately. Also, f-pole is a thing, specifically a distance, not a tactic (I know its used to describe a maneuver of sorts here). fwiw the DCS 1v1 head on from 30 miles is not a common real world engagement. Usually friends are are involved, and at least one side has another job to do.

just a dude who probably doesn't know what he's talking about

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