M-2000C Mid-life Overhaul

[Eaglewings]

M-2000c is a very captivating aircraft. Solid multirole capabilities and couple with the fact that patches and fixes are regular for the mirage these days.

She has been on my watch list for sometime now but the update version(overhaul) is what I finally decided to wait for.

I have my hands filled with the evolving Hornet now beside better to buy an upgrade of the M-2000C

 

Just my perspective on the M-2000C but certainly would be a great addition as she is now.

[Extranajero]

M-2000c is a very captivating aircraft.

 

I bought the M2000C in 2017 and I have never once regretted spending my money on it. It's the aircraft I have flown the most out of every module I own.

[Gladius]

Is something known whether there will be a cockpit update for VR for the Mirage? So that this is a bit better optimized?

[Hook47]

I am REALLY close to purchasing this module, as I am fascinated with the plane, but I hear so many conflicting reports on the state of the module.

 

I am curious, I currently fly Heatblur's F-14B almost exclusively, and find that module to be incredible, but am looking for a similarly fun full fidelity "knife fighter" compliment to the Tomcat's BVR baddassery. I am not expecting this to be to that level, but in it's current state is this a "must have" or a "check back later"?

 

Just buy it, brother. It may have issues, but all DCS modules will have issues here or there. It's worth the money and I've been enjoying it for years.

[jojo]

Is something known whether there will be a cockpit update for VR for the Mirage? So that this is a bit better optimized?

 

I went from CV1 to Rift S and the cockpit is much more readable with similar performances.

[wavn]

A lovely plane

I like to do ground attacks with her:

- attacking SAM 9 and AAA with the rockets

- destroying tanks with the laser guided bombs and Jtac

[pegasus1]

Good evening, i havnt played for a couple of patches but now have no info if using AG weapons. no gunsight, no rocket sight and nothing for bombs. if anything has changed can somebody dirrect me to an uptodate guide, thanks

[Steph21]

Good evening, i havnt played for a couple of patches but now have no info if using AG weapons. no gunsight, no rocket sight and nothing for bombs. if anything has changed can somebody dirrect me to an uptodate guide, thanks

 

First post in the pca/hud update thread

[jojo]

Good evening, i havnt played for a couple of patches but now have no info if using AG weapons. no gunsight, no rocket sight and nothing for bombs. if anything has changed can somebody dirrect me to an uptodate guide, thanks

 

Here:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3982943&postcount=50

[pegasus1]

First post in the pca/hud update thread

 

Here:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3982943&postcount=50

 

Thanks guys, il try that tonight

[LastRifleRound]

I am REALLY close to purchasing this module, as I am fascinated with the plane, but I hear so many conflicting reports on the state of the module.

 

I am curious, I currently fly Heatblur's F-14B almost exclusively, and find that module to be incredible, but am looking for a similarly fun full fidelity "knife fighter" compliment to the Tomcat's BVR baddassery. I am not expecting this to be to that level, but in it's current state is this a "must have" or a "check back later"?

 

This module went dormant for a while and is coming back to life, but in my opinion is still critical-feature incomplete. I'm surprised that no one is telling you the core functionalities that are missing. I wish someone told me before I went for it. I will list them and then you can decide for yourself.

 

1. CCRP bombing does not work. People will tell you if you fly a high dive angle, almost table-based approach with a designation before the target, you will sometimes hit. Up to you if you think that "works". I don't.

 

2. The INS updating does not work. If you update the INS position, it reduces the error to 0, instead of using the position you designated to update ownship position. This makes INS bombing difficult to be precise with and is silly looking in practice. There has been no indication, even in the MLO, that anyone intends to fix this.

 

3. The waypoint positions are wrong. When placing a waypoint in the editor, it will be off, sometimes up to .8nm in the simulation. Same when punching it in to NAV. Again, mostly a concern for A/G INS bombing. Again, there is no talk that this will ever be fixed.

 

4. The INS bombing mode HUD representation does not accurately guide to release, and does not release automatically (releases immediately when bomb release is pressed)

 

The concerns, as you can see, generally relate to A/G missions, specifically cold-war era INS-based bombing in high threat environments. I bought it in tandem with the Viggen to fly this mission in addition to its A/A capabilities and was let down as a result. Most of the people who like ground pounding are using rockets which work fine and LGB's where the aiming problem is mitigated by the guidance system.

 

You seem to want the aircraft for its A/A mission. The radar is going through an overhaul right now that looks to be pretty extensive, while not including any of the A/G modes, it does seem to orient the A/A radar closer to the real thing.

 

I think as an A/A platform, the Mirage is a lot of fun. Some people say the radar breaks lock too easily, but when I fly below to counter the notch I'm not seeing any issues. It's a 70's era radar, notching works well against it but that's real and expected behavior.

 

I would like to point out if you're into A/G, the Harrier is a LOT of fun. It's not feature complete, but most of its core missions can be completed without ridiculous bugs and the V/STOL aspects take weeks to learn on their own.

 

Bottom line, if you want an A/A dogfighter, I'd pick it up. Not too much is going to change in that realm after the PCA updates and it's really fun to fly in this regime.

 

If you care about it's A/G capabilities, I'd wait to see if they're going to do anything about the waypoint positions and INS fixes, as well as a fix to CCRP. None of this has been mentioned so there is no guarantee it will happen any time in the near future.

[jojo]

Yes, Mirage 2000C is primarily a fighter (C stands for Chasseur = Fighter).

AG was meant as secondary mission.

 

And sorry for nitpicking about historical thing, but this isn’t 70’ era radar. RDI has been fielded into mid 80’.

You can beam any AA Doppler radar in DCS. If F-15C or Hornet are playing with AIM-7, you can break their lock by beaming in look down too.

 

I do agree INS and AG need improvement. You are right to rise the point: this isn’t the best AG option. Even perfect, M-2000C will never be as good as Viggen, Harrier or Hornet in AG and was never meant to be.

Today it’s only performing with GBU-XX an Gun in AG.

 

This is a late Cold War era NATO all weather Fox 1 interceptor.

It’s not the best tool to take on post 2005 Hornet, loaded with 10 AIM-120, 2 AIM-9X, JHMCS and L16...

[Fynek]

Well with the Mirage I use only CCIP personally, it is much more accurate.

 

This said I disagree that the Viggen (as much as I love it) is really superior to the Mirage in A2G.

 

Look at it this way : In the Mirage I can carry 9 Beluga 66 And 2 Rocket pods (or 8 Beluga + 2 GBU). Plus i have my internal A2G canons which can cause a lot of damage and are super accurate and can destroy things with a micro burst of less than one second with the right angle...

 

Believe it or not with this loadout I regularly destroy 10+ targets per sorties (and sometimes even a bit more like 15+ if i am very effective/accurate with rockets and canons and depending the type of targets), that is almost A10 Warthog territory.

 

No way I can do that in a Viggen.. you've got a more limited amount of pylons and no internal guns. What the Viggen has over the Mirage is indeed a more accurate CCRP, guided missiles like Rb75(Mavericks) and a fantastic anti-ship capability (comparable to our Super Etendard with Exocet missiles) , but in terms of pure destructive power, the Mirage is actually better in A2G in my opinion.

 

For the Harrier it makes sense since it was designed for A2G... but still with its absolutely terrible range/combat radius, unless you air refuel or fly at the stalling limit, you often need to waste 2 pylons for fuel tanks for any realistic mission so...

 

Anyways, this is just my opinion. I agree that it would be really great if the Mirage gets more fixes for the issues mentioned above, CCRP accuracy and INS updates, would be great alongside an updated cockpit.

[myHelljumper]

Look at it this way : In the Mirage I can carry 9 Beluga 66 And 2 Rocket pods (or 8 Beluga + 2 GBU).

 

Those loadouts are not possible IRL and should not work in the SIM. You can only mix magics and 530D or magics with 1 A/G ordinance (no bombs + 530 or rockets + bombs or 2 types of bombs).

If it currently work it's a bug, and it should be fixed.

 

And I don't agree with your analysis, to me, the efficiency of an A/G platform is not determined by the number of target you can destroy, but by the dedicated systems that the plane have to help the pilot deliver the weapons.

 

IMO the viggen is a far superior ground attack plane, due to the A/G radar, the weapons (BK-90 OP as f*ck) the INS and general systems of the plane that allow it to be used in a high threat environment far easier than the Mirage. The only thing that the Mirage have better than the Viggen is the D2M (MWS), but if you fly in pair, you can reduce the probability of an undetected manpad launch.

 

That's only my opinion regarding my experience using the two aircrafts :).

[viper2097]

Yes, Mirage 2000C is primarily a fighter (C stands for Chasseur = Fighter).

AG was meant as secondary mission.

 

Nicwe to know, I always thought that the C is nothing more then a revision. Like on the US aircrafts....

 

So what does the other letters/numbers stand for? Like N, 5 or D etc...

(N is easy I gues...)

[Steph21]

Nicwe to know, I always thought that the C is nothing more then a revision. Like on the US aircrafts....

 

So what does the other letters/numbers stand for? Like N, 5 or D etc...

(N is easy I gues...)

 

N stands for Nucleaire

D stands for Diversifié

-5 stands for the 5 displays (VTH, VTM, VTB and 2 DDI on the sides) in the Mirage 2000-5

 

I don't know what the -9 stands for in the Mirage 2000-9, but it's a 2000-5 modified for export, like the 2000-5 Mk2

Edited August 6, 2019 by Steph21

[Tumbleweed1606688689]

N stand for Nuc, -5 for the 5 displays in the cockpit and I'm not sure for the D but I think it's "Diversifié" (diversified).

AG on 2000C is a matter of doctrine more than aircraft capabilities. A well modelled/Bug free Mirage should be a very good AG platform.

For instance the french Jaguar which is Mirage2000C contemporary AG platform was considered as a good ground pounder, but its weapon system was worse than a mirage.

[Fynek]

Those loadouts are not possible IRL and should not work in the SIM. You can only mix magics and 530D or magics with 1 A/G ordinance (no bombs + 530 or rockets + bombs or 2 types of bombs).

If it currently work it's a bug, and it should be fixed.

 

And I don't agree with your analysis, to me, the efficiency of an A/G platform is not determined by the number of target you can destroy, but by the dedicated systems that the plane have to help the pilot deliver the weapons.

 

IMO the viggen is a far superior ground attack plane, due to the A/G radar, the weapons (BK-90 OP as f*ck) the INS and general systems of the plane that allow it to be used in a high threat environment far easier than the Mirage. The only thing that the Mirage have better than the Viggen is the D2M (MWS), but if you fly in pair, you can reduce the probability of an undetected manpad launch.

 

That's only my opinion regarding my experience using the two aircrafts :).

 

The loadout I talked about does not carry any Magic or S530D.. ;) 8 Beluga or Snake eyes + 2 Rocket pods + either a fuel tank or 2 GBU or 1 more Beluga/Mk82 on the center pylon.

 

BTW I did not analyze anything :) I just said that compared to a dedicated A2G aircraft like the Viggen, the Mirage can carry more ordnance for A2G to sum it up in one sentence as even if the Viggen can carry many bombs if not more with a specific loadout, it cannot release them in pairs (which allows to strike at more different targets in different locations)

 

The Viggen is indeed much better at what it has been designed to do (deep strikes), more accurate in delivery, clearly better range, guided missiles, higher survivability for doing tricky A2G missions since it can fly very low for a long time despite not having integrated chaffs/flares.

 

I wasn't arguing that really, I was just saying that the Mirage is far from being incapable in that department ( as is usually stated in forums) and in the context of this game (lets face it, it is huge simplification of reality), the Mirage can consistently achieve more ground kills per sortie potentially (with a dedicated A2G loadout) which can make it "superior" in a different way, particularly when attacking areas that were cleared of SAMs beforehand and contain many soft targets that you can freely attack once you destroyed the hard targets with bombs.

 

By the way, isn't the Mirage supposed to have an air-to-ground radar mode as well? somehow it is not the sim yet :)

Edited August 6, 2019 by Fynek

[jojo]

N stand for Nuc, -5 for the 5 displays in the cockpit and I'm not sure for the D but I think it's "Diversifié" (diversified).

AG on 2000C is a matter of doctrine more than aircraft capabilities. A well modelled/Bug free Mirage should be a very good AG platform.

For instance the french Jaguar which is Mirage2000C contemporary AG platform was considered as a good ground pounder, but its weapon system was worse than a mirage.

 

Yep, but Jaguar E could carry Martel AR missile, ATLIS TV targeting pod to guide all kind of LGB and AS30L missile. :smilewink:

And actually the laser ranger in the nose made it more accurate for general purpose bomb delivery.

Edited August 6, 2019 by jojo

[Tumbleweed1606688689]

Yep, but Jaguar E could carry Martel AR missile, ATLIS TV targeting pod to guide all kind of LGB and AS30L missile. :smilewink:

And actually the laser ranger in the nose made it more accurate for general purpose bomb delivery.

True. But I spoke about Pre-Gulf War/Cold War A/G low level doctrine.

This is what 2000C SNA was designed for and shine:joystick:.

[jojo]

True. But I spoke about Pre-Gulf War/Cold War A/G low level doctrine.

This is what 2000C SNA was designed for and shine:joystick:.

 

Mirage 2000C was designed as an interceptor. Pilots were only spending around 15% of their time in AG training during Cold War.

[Fynek]

Still, even if the 2000c was not comparable to a Mirage 2000D for A2G (with cruise missiles Scalp, Apache, Laser targeting pod, capable of carrying all conventional bombs in the arsenal etc), from what I know it still had an air-to-ground radar mode which shows that perhaps it was not only just an interceptor in the mind of the designers.

 

I would really like to see this ground radar function implemented in DCS at some point.

 

Though to be fair, if Razbam would consider time better spent to make another Mirage version sold separately, like for a 2000-5 or 2000D, I would love that even more.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Fynek

[TLTeo]

According to wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_Doppler_Multifunction (obviously not entirely reliable, but hey it's the best I can do) the air to ground modes were introduced with the RDY radar. The Mirage in DCS has the earlier RDI radar which was more focused on the air to air mission, so it sounds like it didn't have any A2G radar modes. I think people got confused (or there was some change during developement) with which radar was going to be included in the module?

Edited August 6, 2019 by TLTeo

[jojo]

RDI has 3 AG radar modes:

- TAS: Télémétrie Air Sol = AG ranging. We already have that.

- VIS: VISualisation = basic mapping mode (not yet). You can’t designate anything with that.

- DEC: DECoupe = terrain avoidance mode, like the Hornet. (not yet either).

 

Overall these 2 missing modes won’t change how you perform AG missions.

 

RDY on French Mirage 2000-5F have the same modes.

 

Export RDY have more evolved functions depending on client’s requirements.

[Tumbleweed1606688689]

Mirage 2000C was designed as an interceptor. Pilots were only spending around 15% of their time in AG training during Cold War.

OK then:It's Where it shine during the 15%of the time they spend to train AG