Jump to content

M-2000C Mid-life Overhaul


Zeus67

Recommended Posts

They are not making the same kind of aircraft at all.

Comparing Mirage 2000C of mid/ late-80' with relaxed stability and fly by wire to F-14 Tomcat fielded in the mid 70' is totally nonsense.

Please, don't make me tell what I didn't tell.

If you think the Mirage flight model is Ok, then good for you.

I don't care because i don't fly the mirage anymore.

End of story :)


Edited by sylkhan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not by me

 

I don't have the F-16, but the flight model need to be more or less the same (FBW) as Mirage

Then fly the DCS f-16 (if you have it) and tell me that you don't feel a difference.

 

If you want

 

You understand that FBW is a flight control system and not a ''flight model'' ?

 

If you read my initial post, I actually said that there is a huge difference between both, which is totally normal.

Not sure what is your point.

Aorus Z690i, 13600K @5.5ghz, RTX4090, 32GB DDR4 3600 C16, SSD WD SN850 black, HP Reverb G2, Virpil WarBRD + MongoosT50 CM2 grip

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not by me

 

I don't have the F-16, but the flight model need to be more or less the same (FBW) as Mirage

Then fly the DCS f-16 (if you have it) and tell me that you don't feel a difference.

 

If you want

 

F-16 FBW and Mirage 2000 FBW aren't the same.

 

For instance with the F-16 in cruise gain the aircraft is always trimmed for 1G.

With the Mirage 2000 below 300kt you have to trim for AoA, and you can use auto pilot to do so. Above 300kt you are also trimmed for 1G.

 

F-16 is always limited to 9G, and 25° AoA in CAT I and 16°-18° in CAT III, which means you can over-G with heavy loads at high speed.

In the Mirage you are limited to 29° AoA, 9G in AA and 6G in CHARGES, you can't over-G with the correct switch setting, but you have to take care of AoA below 22° with heavy stores.

 

Mirage has auto-rudder trim, not the F-16.

 

So there are a lot of difference in the FBW of the aircrafts, and the Hirnet is still something different.

Mirage fanatic !

I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2.

Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You understand that FBW is a flight control system and not a ''flight model'' ?.

Are you sure :)

 

F-16 FBW and Mirage 2000 FBW aren't the same.

I know, I just said that the flight model of a FBW jet is more or less the same (in terms of behavior and feeling)

Note the "MORE OR LESS"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As your signature says, you are a Mirage fanatic. That maybe makes you blind to any critizm against your beloved Mirage.

 

I'm not alone with my opinion that RB modules are lacking completely the "feeling" and "life" in their flight model. However, those are things that can't be found in any tables or objective discussions. So its pointless to discuss about feelings. The F-16 and the F-18 are also other FBW modules we have, and wow, both actually feel like I'm awaiting it. And again, many people are saying the same. But again, its feelings and that can't be judged.

Believe, the Mirage is an awesome plane and I love it. So I'm not happy to point on any shortcomings (as you may think I enjoy).

Steam user - Youtube

I am for quality over quantity in DCS modules

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think only a irl fighter pilot will have the capability to answer our questions but razbam showed the product to French army and they didn't look shocked by poor realism...

 

By the way, M2000 is still a must have on DCS with is own "personality" and a real pleasure to dog fight and intercept with him !

 

 

ROG Maximus XI Hero / i9-9900k @5Ghz / 32Gb DDR4 @3200Mhz / Samsung 960 Pro M.2 / RTX2080ti / Vive Pro / ROG 3440x1440

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you sure :)

 

 

I know, I just said that the flight model of a FBW jet is more or less the same (in terms of behavior and feeling)

Note the "MORE OR LESS"

 

Pretty sure.

You can program a FBW computer to fly a jet MORE OR LESS like a B747 :)

Aorus Z690i, 13600K @5.5ghz, RTX4090, 32GB DDR4 3600 C16, SSD WD SN850 black, HP Reverb G2, Virpil WarBRD + MongoosT50 CM2 grip

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly, IRL pilots needs to be taken with care. Most of them are seeing simulators like DCS as nothing more then a neat toy. And then, they are completely positive blinded that THEIR jet is in THAT game. So it MUST be awesome.

I'd guess they would need to have sim experience since ever and played their module for more then 100h to get a real useable feedback.

Steam user - Youtube

I am for quality over quantity in DCS modules

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly, IRL pilots needs to be taken with care. Most of them are seeing simulators like DCS as nothing more then a neat toy. And then, they are completely positive blinded that THEIR jet is in THAT game. So it MUST be awesome.

I'd guess they would need to have sim experience since ever and played their module for more then 100h to get a real useable feedback.

Ok sounds not totally false, I admit it.

I guess we'll have to deal with what we have...

And enjoy it! Me I do!

As a French I'm also probably not totally objective... i saw mirage 2000 flight over my house since 38 years. I'm so glad to have te possibility to flight with it...

DCS is "only" a game... despite the realism.


Edited by paradox64

 

 

ROG Maximus XI Hero / i9-9900k @5Ghz / 32Gb DDR4 @3200Mhz / Samsung 960 Pro M.2 / RTX2080ti / Vive Pro / ROG 3440x1440

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly, IRL pilots needs to be taken with care. Most of them are seeing simulators like DCS as nothing more then a neat toy. And then, they are completely positive blinded that THEIR jet is in THAT game. So it MUST be awesome.

I'd guess they would need to have sim experience since ever and played their module for more then 100h to get a real useable feedback.

 

:thumbup: Exactly !

and don't forget marketing for kids :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think you can compare flight model characteristics differences between other aircraft especially with wing shapes and different FBW systems.

 

34908826_10214249800337156_236313408478117888_o.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_oc=AQlGYyvvImb0xPeAPQkuSxA1ASbvRx8g0d1Oy7FhvSiexF9QlHL2oP-RT-VcrKq335B-cqccbNe5JBRegI8bQqjR&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=f4516067cbf27ed8ed6a91fad70b7247&oe=5E3D4735

 

We have a personal connection with the pilots from the 2/5 and we bug them constantly to really dive into comparison with the real aircraft and the DCS version.

We have developed a good relationship with them and the communication is strong. They use DCS as training tool so they want to give us the most accurate feed back as possible.

 

34776557_10214249775056524_3822724535019372544_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQmVOLOKITzM6i1hc9TANWbawJOQoGd1okg8ezphnx04x7Ct8k4-ADUyd9xndem-DE1b3KzAw9WlkaVa1uA-ybm4&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=4dc0965ada4ea7cb7fc4c7dc7db75135&oe=5E39AE8F

 

Actually we have even flown in their training simulators and the DCS version feel basically the same.

When I got in the sim and tried it, I was quite impressed with Captain Smiley's work on capturing the "The Feel" as everyone calls it with FM performance.

Except with the Thales simulated cockpit and a FBW simulated FLCS, also a throttle you have to slam in AB, etc. That is what draws the difference between their simulator and DCS that i could feel.

(Edit: Their Mirage 2000C is the newer P2 Engine which spooled up faster, and we are addressing that in updates with accurate information soon.)

 

34984375_10214249775496535_9070683986681921536_o.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_oc=AQmDDZQkuRq_6HyEvegHt8QC7Wij3ymHMPvXQjPqBOReOA6U0NS-zK7SC8TJgi4dl5sIbm6shPsxCTT1Fo-C6kLx&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=f24cef0c58e7bb5c7dcae03f4c9988ff&oe=5E290B77

 

The Mirage 2000C Stick is really hard to move and the pilots say that they learn to fly it "in the dime" not like how we do in in front of the monitors or in VR with our warthogs or Virpils slaming sticks from one side of the axis to the other.

 

34872685_10214249775656539_4039935324829253632_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_oc=AQnKXWD0ZwAPnwTIVUIdOn_NU6cE4RTh4VIhMpgemmqPX2DC5Y6WGXJc7pbeY3-D3W6EPJuzYjIbc6GJy0dLVs3Z&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=b8b7780ea8b1ab0d77743c052266ed55&oe=5E2755AB

 

Also another thing about the simulator and this goes for every single one ever created that nobody takes into account when comparing to a real plane.

Flying a real aircraft is a lot easier IRL than one on the computer, I don't care how good you code it and if you are Microsoft, ED, Xplane or even Thales within a million dollar simulator.

It is so much easier in a real plane than any sim.


Edited by Timghetta

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

We take the Metal and bring it to Mesh

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly, IRL pilots needs to be taken with care. Most of them are seeing simulators like DCS as nothing more then a neat toy. And then, they are completely positive blinded that THEIR jet is in THAT game. So it MUST be awesome.

I'd guess they would need to have sim experience since ever and played their module for more then 100h to get a real useable feedback.

 

You won't learn anything from anybody because you know better.

 

Just for the record, there is now in French Air Force and French Navy (as in over countries I'm sure) a bunch of hard core simmers who managed to make it for real. Starting with the guy who manages the project between Razbam and French Air Force.

Some of them were practicing with Flanker 2.0 or the-other-sim-we-aren't-allowed-to-talk-about. Some of them even kept on with latest variant of these simulators, including DCS before M-2000C was out, while on active duty.

 

They know desktop sims, they know professionals sims and they know the real deal. Not everyone of them, but this kind of project is possible because a few of them are in the position to make it happen.

And they are professionals with training objectives and cost constraints.They managed to convince their General that it was good enough for their training.

 

But of course you know better...

Mirage fanatic !

I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2.

Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You won't learn anything from anybody because you know better.

...

But of course you know better...

 

I accept it that you have your opinion, that others have their opinion and that I have mine.

As we are talking about opinions and feelings, there is maybe no right, wrong or things we can get in letters to compare.

 

I accept it also that your opinion may be other then mine. Please do also the same without offending me. Thank you.

Steam user - Youtube

I am for quality over quantity in DCS modules

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I accept it that you have your opinion, that others have their opinion and that I have mine.

 

As we are talking about opinions and feelings, there is maybe no right, wrong or things we can get in letters to compare.

 

 

 

I accept it also that your opinion may be other then mine. Please do also the same without offending me. Thank you.

Yep your intitled to your own opinion the same as everyone else. I can't help but notice your opinion is mostly negative towards Razbam tho ?

 

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk



 

Water cooled i9-9900K | Maximus Code XI MB | RTX3090  | 64GB | HP Reverb G2 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unfortunately, yes it is.

As i love the Mirage and Harrier, I'm very sad that it is like that.

But as community manager, you should know way more then good enough, why it is as it is.

 

Or do you need a link to 99% of the bug report threads which are just ignored by Razbam? Some of them for even more then a year?

Or should I link to the discussion about releasing a new module while one is still bugged and another is far, far, far away from being finished?

Or should I link to the discussion where we have been told lies (again) about different teams coding on different aircrafts?


Edited by viper2097

Steam user - Youtube

I am for quality over quantity in DCS modules

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think you can compare flight model characteristics differences between other aircraft especially with wing shapes and different FBW systems.

 

34908826_10214249800337156_236313408478117888_o.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_oc=AQlGYyvvImb0xPeAPQkuSxA1ASbvRx8g0d1Oy7FhvSiexF9QlHL2oP-RT-VcrKq335B-cqccbNe5JBRegI8bQqjR&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=f4516067cbf27ed8ed6a91fad70b7247&oe=5E3D4735

 

We have a personal connection with the pilots from the 2/5 and we bug them constantly to really dive into comparison with the real aircraft and the DCS version.

We have developed a good relationship with them and the communication is strong. They use DCS as training tool so they want to give us the most accurate feed back as possible.

 

34776557_10214249775056524_3822724535019372544_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQmVOLOKITzM6i1hc9TANWbawJOQoGd1okg8ezphnx04x7Ct8k4-ADUyd9xndem-DE1b3KzAw9WlkaVa1uA-ybm4&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=4dc0965ada4ea7cb7fc4c7dc7db75135&oe=5E39AE8F

 

Actually we have even flown in their training simulators and the DCS version feel basically the same.

When I got in the sim and tried it, I was quite impressed with Captain Smiley's work on capturing the "The Feel" as everyone calls it with FM performance.

Except with the Thales simulated cockpit and a FBW simulated FLCS, also a throttle you have to slam in AB, etc. That is what draws the difference between their simulator and DCS that i could feel.

(Edit: Their Mirage 2000C is the newer P2 Engine which spooled up faster, and we are addressing that in updates with accurate information soon.)

 

34984375_10214249775496535_9070683986681921536_o.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_oc=AQmDDZQkuRq_6HyEvegHt8QC7Wij3ymHMPvXQjPqBOReOA6U0NS-zK7SC8TJgi4dl5sIbm6shPsxCTT1Fo-C6kLx&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=f24cef0c58e7bb5c7dcae03f4c9988ff&oe=5E290B77

 

The Mirage 2000C Stick is really hard to move and the pilots say that they learn to fly it "in the dime" not like how we do in in front of the monitors or in VR with our warthogs or Virpils slaming sticks from one side of the axis to the other.

 

34872685_10214249775656539_4039935324829253632_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_oc=AQnKXWD0ZwAPnwTIVUIdOn_NU6cE4RTh4VIhMpgemmqPX2DC5Y6WGXJc7pbeY3-D3W6EPJuzYjIbc6GJy0dLVs3Z&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=b8b7780ea8b1ab0d77743c052266ed55&oe=5E2755AB

 

Also another thing about the simulator and this goes for every single one ever created that nobody takes into account when comparing to a real plane.

Flying a real aircraft is a lot easier IRL than one on the computer, I don't care how good you code it and if you are Microsoft, ED, Xplane or even Thales within a million dollar simulator.

It is so much easier in a real plane than any sim.

 

 

 

Wait, we don't have the M-53P2 in DCS ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree :)

 

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

So you seem to know well enough where the negative reputation for Razbam is coming from...

I'm not trolling, I would love to see improvements as I love those aircrafts...

I've reported more then enough bugs which Razbam is ignoring as they do with all other reported bugs. So its up to Razbam to show some action.


Edited by viper2097

Steam user - Youtube

I am for quality over quantity in DCS modules

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So you seem to know well enough where the negative reputation for Razbam is coming from...

I'm not trolling, I would love to see improvements as I love those aircrafts...

I've reported more then enough bugs which Razbam is ignoring as they do with all other reported bugs. So its up to Razbam to show some action.

All you do is complain and moan !

 

But hey I'm allowed my opinion just as you are.

 

Thanks

 

 

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk



 

Water cooled i9-9900K | Maximus Code XI MB | RTX3090  | 64GB | HP Reverb G2 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...