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Should chaff be able to break a radar lock under certain circumstances?

 

If not shouldnt chaff at leadt cause false targets in search mode, provided you deploy enough number of chaffs?

 

I wonder why none of this is simulated if thats the case as i presume.

 

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Yes, all under specific circumstances. Chaff is employed because it does work, but the circumstances and the how and why change with technology. It also changes the tactics employed together with chaff to make it effective.

 

In DCS it's simply a chance (probability) to decoy the missile, modified by a bunch of factors including look up/down, aspect, rcs and probably a couple of other things.

 

Should chaff be able to break a radar lock under certain circumstances?

 

If not shouldnt chaff at leadt cause false targets in search mode, provided you deploy enough number of chaffs?

 

I wonder why none of this is simulated if thats the case as i presume.

 

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I don't know why you believe the chaff would affect the (more powerful in every way) tracking radar more than the missile ... yes, CM simulation should be advanced from what it is right now, IMHO but if you believe that doppler discrimination alone is a magical anti-chaff bullet, there are bridges to be sold :)

 

the more powerful in everyway tracking radar is obviously more powerful because the missile don't have any… radar…

 

SARH missile are blind, they only see the reflected power of the emitting radar, if the radar manage to keep tracking the actual target, the missile is barely annoyed ( see previous post )

 

True, the radar shouldn't get fooled by chaff if the target is hot, but with a target beaming/cold with ECM..

 

even with a good chaff proof radar, the chaff may still mask ( target in cold/lot of chaff fired previously ) the true target ( Gun track on one F/a-18 video… )

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The missile most certainly has an onboard radar. It does everything a radar does except for emission.

 

It is vulnerable to the same tracking problems that any radar has.

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It is vulnerable to the same tracking problems that any radar has.

 

Except not. As it ain't a small, power limited one time used device for the target guidance logic..

It is part of the more complex and capable logic system.

 

 

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AFAIK...

 

 

 

Chaff works best when beaming, forcing the missile to go for a stronger Doppler return

Chaff may give stronger radar return but when beaming both you and chaff give the same doppler shift against the radar.

 

 

 

SARH missile are blind, they only see the reflected power of the emitting radar, if the radar manage to keep tracking the actual target, the missile is barely annoyed ( see previous post )

 

True, the radar shouldn't get fooled by chaff if the target is hot, but with a target beaming/cold with ECM..

Don't forget chaff is also reflecting radar emissions - that's the point - to fool the radar - both the tracking one and that receiver antenna from the missile.

When you need to beam you probably are already in burnthrough range so keeping the ECM on will do you more harm than good.

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I do agree that the chaff should have a much bigger effect if you are cold and the missile is tail chasing you... now it is percent based... but flying through clouds of chaff can't be doing wonders for target detection...

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I do agree that the chaff should have a much bigger effect if you are cold and the missile is tail chasing you... now it is percent based... but flying through clouds of chaff can't be doing wonders for target detection...
The chaff is modeled badly now. IIRC a developer (IIRC heatblur) said that chaff life time is couple seconds.

 

Maybe sometime we get hours so you really need to consider when you chaff and where. As you as well cause trouble to everyone in that general large area as it spreads and moves.

 

Now it is just a dice rolling to get missile rejecting you as target and never come back.

So dump as many you can to get it off and problem solved.

 

A break should be broken of the is chaff between you and radar... Like how does a radar see you through the chaff cloud it should reject?

 

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That's exactly what the homing missile seeker is.

 

Except not. As it ain't a small, power limited one time used device for the target guidance logic..

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This has to do with how radio works, and I don't know enough about it (specifically receding targets are not as nice for the HPRF waveforms being used - on the other hand, you're shooting from close range in those cases) but as far as discrimination goes - that is accomplished via doppler discrimination, and chaff is always going to be different from a target that's not on the beam. With the exception of the chaff actually masking the aircraft return, the missile shouldn't have too hard of a time of discriminating the target from the chaff (as long as the seeker is locked on target) unless the target turns to the beam.

 

And this is where you get into chaff blooming parameters and other fun things which the game doesn't simulate. Indeed, if seeker noise was simulated (for the doppler gate, seeker motion and other things) as well as chaff noise (chaff radar returns look different from a target return with the right analysis), AND the missile's own ECCM attempts to ignore the chaff beyond just the doppler gate, you'd get something more realistic.

 

As well, pre-emptive CM use becomes important - regarding the bolded statement above ... these SARH missiles are actually launched blind. Their seekers are 'off' until they clear the launching aircraft's radar interference. So the missile is launched with steering commands for the missile and the seeker, as well as the doppler search gate is set to a specific range to 'catch' the specific target we're looking for. All of this is done by the WCS and it 'sets up' the missile. The missile will then activate its seeker and look for its target. If you have chaff flying, that chaff may be in the correct doppler range for a moment, and the missile's seeker might lock onto that instead of your aircraft. Something similar holds for flares.

 

This would also force more realistic evasion with chaff, not just crank-away and fill the sky with foil to evade a locked-on missile - that missile would try to 'hold on' to its target a little harder than what happens today.

 

 

I do agree that the chaff should have a much bigger effect if you are cold and the missile is tail chasing you... now it is percent based... but flying through clouds of chaff can't be doing wonders for target detection...

Edited by GGTharos

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That's exactly what the homing missile seeker is.
You are leaving out that it is assisted with a far larger and more capable radar(s).

 

You know it....

 

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I know AMRAAMs are - it will continuously receive M-link data and evaluate them vs their own homing information.

 

An R-27 ignores ownship data once it is homing, although it will still receive link data if it loses track (the ownship radar does not) which is nice.

 

Exactly what manner of assistance are you talk about?

 

Are we still talking about homing AAMs, or are you trying to slip in some TVM capability performed by SAMs?

 

You are leaving out that it is assisted with a far larger and more capable radar(s).

 

You know it....


Edited by GGTharos

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Don't forget chaff is also reflecting radar emissions - that's the point - to fool the radar - both the tracking one and that receiver antenna from the missile.

 

 

Chaff is reflecting radar emissions only if the tracking radar is actually fooled to illuminate the chaff else there is nothing to reflect. If the tracking radar is not fooled then the missile shouldn't be as well.

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Chaff is reflecting radar emissions only if the tracking radar is actually fooled to illuminate the chaff else there is nothing to reflect. If the tracking radar is not fooled then the missile shouldn't be as well.
Only so if the radar beam doesn't illuminate the chaff. Even when guidance radar can ignore/reject chaff, it doesn't mean that missile does so. And even when radar can ignorer chaff, it doesn't mean that it can't fool it or disturb the radar operations for accuracy.

 

 

 

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Are we still talking about homing AAMs, or are you trying to slip in some TVM capability performed by SAMs?

 

As you are such a hostile person it doesn't help anyone...

 

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Only so if the radar beam doesn't illuminate the chaff. Even when guidance radar can ignore/reject chaff, it doesn't mean that missile does so. And even when radar can ignorer chaff, it doesn't mean that it can't fool it or disturb the radar operations for accuracy.

 

 

 

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I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

I don't understand how the missile can track the chaff if radar on stt mode stays with the target ? Chaff are not connected to the aircraft and will remain in space somewhere behind fairly quickly so they wont be illuminated in such case. What can chaff reflect to fool the missile, may be I am missing something ?

 

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What would help is having something useful to say. You said I am leaving things out, I responded - so far you haven't given a single example of what it is that I am leaving out.

 

As you are such a hostile person it doesn't help anyone...

Edited by GGTharos

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1) The shooter's radar beam (the beam width definition is a power definition - that beam is a lot wider than what we think of as the radar beam). Of course, there are certainly limits to that.

2) The defender's ECM ... that would be 'jaff'.

 

The situation where missiles go for chaff that is well outside of their own FoV is a well known, traditional DCS bug :/. I don't know if it has been fixed, but that shouldn't be too hard to test.

 

I don't understand how the missile can track the chaff if radar on stt mode stays with the target ? Chaff are not connected to the aircraft and will remain in space somewhere behind fairly quickly so they wont be illuminated in such case. What can chaff reflect to fool the missile, may be I am missing something ?

 

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https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cX71xcTgfY1lYYnD3oHY8uM_p6V__cdv/view?usp=sharing

 

If you want more information on chaff this is a good place to start (chapter 13 a little past half way through the pdf). Just keep in mind chaff implementation is very simplistic (to put it mildly) so don't expect what should happen to happen in DCS until chaff is updated.

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There we go.

 

 

I guess I didn't remember quite as well as I thought, but close enough. On the plus side, proof that you get to designate for as many slammers are you're packing.

 

 

 

I must have missed that part. Got a quote or something I can reference?

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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