TrackIR or VR? why?

[hansangb]

I've used VR and have "experienced" the "real thing". VR at present is a proof of concept, nothing more nothing less. If "1st gen" of a brand new technology isn't "infancy" to you... Well, I don't know what is. The PiMax stuff is at best 2nd gen which means "early but still not very advanced". I mean seriously? First gen jets like the Me-262 with their infamous exploding engines and horridly slow turbine lag weren't "jets in their infancy" to you?

 

Current VR builds are crude and clumsy. Functional? Yes, they are. I get it, there's fanbois and haters for everything, but as someone who is very "pro VR" myself I can only see these kind of comments as unreasonable fanboiing because there is no way on EARTH this tech can be regarded as anything but very early and very crude. In 5-8 years it will be in every house and will have matured tremendously, but at this point, yeah, it's pretty damn bare bones and has a whole raft of drawbacks to using it.

 

 

Sorry. But VR will *NEVER EVER* be in every household. It's clumsy, tethered, and serves very little purpose. EXCEPT in simulation games like flying and driving.

 

Sure, some of the climbing, shooting games are fun, but doesn't add to the experience of the game in any material fashion. You call it fanboi'ing and infancy. I call it God's gift to flight sim'ing. I never would have imagined I'd be doing this when I first cracked open F15 Strike Eagle or Choplifter.

 

But Proof of Concept? Puhlease. When Samsung, Lenovo, Sony, Vive, Rift, Pimax, Microsoft, and others are making consumer devices, it's WAY past proof of concept.

[Harlikwin]

To offer a contrasting viewpoint, I have the HTC Vive and TrackIR and I vastly prefer TrackIR for the following reasons:

 

1. I get motion sickness when I fly in VR for too long. I know about the whole "getting your VR legs" thing, but combined with the other reasons, I don't feel the need to repeatedly punish myself so that one day I might get over it.

 

2. I have a cockpit with external monitors and several button boxes, all of which are unusable inside VR. I know there's people who can feel their way around, but it's not going to be the same as just looking at something and using it directly, especially when I have a F-16 ICP, A-10 UFC, 2 MFD panels, and an Elgato Stream Deck.

 

3. The headset gets hot after a while, and it's hard to keep it in the sweet spot. Either I have to pull the head straps tight enough to where they start to squeeze and hurt, or I keep them looser but have to constantly adjust the positioning to stay in the sweet spot.

 

4. It's impossible to look at reference materials such as tutorials, live maps, airport charts, etc. while in VR, and things like bathroom and water breaks have to be planned out because removing and putting the headset on, getting into the sweet spot, then feeling around for the joystick and throttle, is a whole process that I don't want to repeat too often.

 

5. The low resolution, even with super-sampling, is not great. MFDs and displays are too blurry to view comfortably unless I lean in, and combined with having to feel around for the MFD buttons means that I often feel like I'm just fumbling around instead of doing what I actually want to do. Ground targets without labels are all but impossible to spot, and air targets all look like black dots until you get really close.

 

6. The feeling of immersion is great at first, but I find that it quickly wears off and I find that the other things I stated above takes precedence. As someone else said, "VR is great if you're just flying around, but not when you actually want to do something beyond that".

 

I'm sure that there are workarounds and even decent solutions for these points, but taken as a whole, I find that I'd much rather fly in TrackIR and only lose the sense of immersion, vs. VR where I have to deal with all of the downsides.

 

Counterpoints:

 

1. Well thats you, plenty of people have 0 issue. I for the most part did not.

 

2. The whole point of VR is just looking at it and interacting with the virtual pit directly. Yeah I get that you have a "Button". I have a virtual button and its 100% where its supposed be. I'm not hitting "g" for landing gear, I'm using the "real" lollipop handle.

 

3. Not an issue for me (Rift)

 

4. Its called using the kneeboard, you can put a whole chucks guide on it. Yes its more work. And honestly getting in/out of VR is no biggie for me I often pause to deal with RL.

 

5. Yup, 100% spot on with 1st gen (Rift), lower res is definitely an issue, and as a work around I use "dots lables" for everything, its not really imersion breaking for me. The MFD thing is 50/50, you pretty much get used to "reading" low res information after a while, plus you know what it looks like I guess (I can tell if harrier mavs read sdby or rdy, even though I can't actually read it without leaning in, one is shorter than the other and it looks different). I guess res is somewhat better with V1.5 (O+/Vive pro), and will only improve with time and newer headsets. Personally I think 2019/2020 is gonna be the year of a decent res headset. Cockpit interaction with mouse/trackbal/touch controller is just something that becomes instinctive after a while. Eventually things like captoglove will make it a non issue.

 

6. I have the opposite opinion, the immersion is worth the somewhat shittier res, the rest is pretty easy to work around. YMMV.

[Ranma13]

I think you misunderstand what "viewpoint" means. I don't care how well you get along with VR, because that's your viewpoint and has no relevance to how I get along with VR. Your "counterpoints" are basically saying "I have a different experience than you", which is great, but you also try to dismiss mine because you don't agree.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Ranma13

[horus-DCS]

To offer a contrasting viewpoint, I have the HTC Vive and TrackIR and I vastly prefer TrackIR for the following reasons:

 

1. I get motion sickness when I fly in VR for too long. I know about the whole "getting your VR legs" thing, but combined with the other reasons, I don't feel the need to repeatedly punish myself so that one day I might get over it.

 

2. I have a cockpit with external monitors and several button boxes, all of which are unusable inside VR. I know there's people who can feel their way around, but it's not going to be the same as just looking at something and using it directly, especially when I have a F-16 ICP, A-10 UFC, 2 MFD panels, and an Elgato Stream Deck.

 

3. The headset gets hot after a while, and it's hard to keep it in the sweet spot. Either I have to pull the head straps tight enough to where they start to squeeze and hurt, or I keep them looser but have to constantly adjust the positioning to stay in the sweet spot.

 

4. It's impossible to look at reference materials such as tutorials, live maps, airport charts, etc. while in VR, and things like bathroom and water breaks have to be planned out because removing and putting the headset on, getting into the sweet spot, then feeling around for the joystick and throttle, is a whole process that I don't want to repeat too often.

 

5. The low resolution, even with super-sampling, is not great. MFDs and displays are too blurry to view comfortably unless I lean in, and combined with having to feel around for the MFD buttons means that I often feel like I'm just fumbling around instead of doing what I actually want to do. Ground targets without labels are all but impossible to spot, and air targets all look like black dots until you get really close.

 

6. The feeling of immersion is great at first, but I find that it quickly wears off and I find that the other things I stated above takes precedence. As someone else said, "VR is great if you're just flying around, but not when you actually want to do something beyond that".

 

I'm sure that there are workarounds and even decent solutions for these points, but taken as a whole, I find that I'd much rather fly in TrackIR and only lose the sense of immersion, vs. VR where I have to deal with all of the downsides.

 

I have almost same experiences, so understand well how you feel.

At first to say, I've been using VR sets even since Oculus DK1, now CV1 for over 2 years.

 

1 and 3. Actually I don't get motion sickness that much in DCS, but just feel uncomfortable with that tight, hot, heavy and eye blocking headset on my face.

 

2. I also prefer to control cockpit functions with external button boxes. Some well-configured external devices can provide much more effective controls than virtual things can.

 

4. I use a notebook to write coordinates and valuable mission data on and a tablet to search references and manuals for some serious missions. No way to use them smoothly in VR at this moment.

 

5. Though 1st gen VR's poor performance is a weak point, it doesn't really matter to me, because 1, 2, 3, 4 were bigger problems anyway.

 

6. Totally agree. VR enthusiasts, don't get me wrong, I'm happy with the immersion factor of VR enough, but that's not all I(and someone like me) need. VR definitely limits some aspects of playing hardcore sims for now.

[GTFreeFlyer]

 

If you can only afford VR, you can probably afford to get both anyway because you either already have a good PC or you don't mind spending $600+ on a gpu and another $400 on a VR kit, so what's another $140 on TrackIR?

 

 

I found out the hard way, but you’ll also need a nice HOTAS with lots of buttons. Whatever you can do to remove the keyboard from the experience is almost a requirement in VR. After I spent a lot of cash on a new PC and the Oculus, I thought I was done. Nope, had to go buy the Warthog HOTAS for another $400+

 

Lots of people also use voice commands to replace the keyboard. I would really like to, but I’m always playing at night when others are sleeping.

[streakeagle]

I have been using voice commands for years... but only to support radio comms or any other commands that you would use spoken words to accomplish... i.e. talking to a virtual backseater.

 

A recent poll showed that the Warthog HOTAS is the dominant leader in marketshare for DCS World forum members. I would expect most people serious about combat flight sims to have at least a Logitech/Saitek or budget Thrustmaster HOTAS.

 

I would put more money into a HOTAS before I would spend even one dollar on TrackIR or VR. I could still be happy flying using an 8-way POV hat switch with a shift modifier for looking up. TrackIR did for view control what voice commands do for radio comms. VR is way beyond TrackIR... but at a great cost in money, comfort, frame rates and/or image quality. Both are luxuries compared to a HOTAS in this hobby.

Edited February 5, 2019 by streakeagle

[SharpeXB]

All the fanboy talking up VR is too much.

Yes, the technology is as much in its infancy as the first cell phone was. Yet there is no certainty it will be as successful. VR for PC gaming is stalled in a chicken & egg moment. There is no killer app or game that makes the purchase of these headsets a must have. Despite how much we all like DCS, sims like this are a niche. Among the most popular VR games is stuff like Office Simulator. And few devs will make games for such a low ownership of the headsets.

I’ve tried an Oculus and there’s no way enough resolution in it to play a flight sim effectively. You wouldn’t be able to see or ID targets or even read your gauges. VR fans seem to be so excited to see graphic performance I think most would find unacceptable for such expensive rigs. And low frame rates that wouldn’t even be playable in 2D.

VR is for “hey wow I’m flying”

TrackIR is for skilled gameplay.

Maybe VR will get there or maybe it will die out again like it has before. But right now it’s just not worthwhile IMO

And the first gen headsets out now may also be the last gen.

Edited February 5, 2019 by SharpeXB

[GTFreeFlyer]

I said it in another forum post:

If you’re a simmer, VR is for you.

If you’re a gamer, VR is probably not for you.

 

I was never into competitive gameplay. I’ve always just enjoyed the experience of flight. I once had a TrackIR and I sold it.

[Svsmokey]

On a number of different sub-forums , covering a myriad of different subjects , i have found serial posts such as these to be borderline trollish , by one who loves to argue purely for arguement's sake , however unfailingly politely . That last judgement , however , is jeopardized by phrases such as "fanboy" and the inference that VR users place no value on skills .

Edited February 5, 2019 by Svsmokey

[Svsmokey]

I said it in another forum post:

If you’re a simmer, VR is for you.

If you’re a gamer, VR is probably not for you.

 

I was never into competitive gameplay. I’ve always just enjoyed the experience of flight. I once had a TrackIR and I sold it.

 

Well put !

[GTFreeFlyer]

There’s a song by Paloma Faith called “Do You Want the Truth or Something Beautiful”.

 

I always think of my Oculus when I hear that line.

[dburne]

All the fanboy talking up VR is too much.

 

Give it up already man, now you are just trolling.

We get VR is not for you. Move on.

 

The talking up VR is too much for you? Try not reading the VR threads cause all you are going to find there is the many who are enjoying it.

[Livers]

The talking up VR is too much for you? Try not reading the VR threads cause all you are going to find there is the many who are enjoying it.

What makes this a VR thread?

[dburne]

What makes this a VR thread?

 

It is a thread from a user asking about Track IR or VR.

No need for anyone to disparage one group over the other, I would say the same if that same statement was made about Track IR users.

[eaglecash867]

It is a thread from a user asking about Track IR or VR.

No need for anyone to disparage one group over the other, I would say the same if that same statement was made about Track IR users.

 

Yup. Its a thread about both things, where hopefully people can just give their personal experiences and why they like one over the other. Its not a place for people to get all emotional and start calling each other names. If someone tries something other than what they're used to for 5 minutes and decides they don't like it, that's all they have to say is "I didn't like it, because..." and move on. But, sometimes somebody has to come in and start insulting other people with "fanboy" and "console game" non-sense. :doh:

 

I've tried both, and once I tried VR, I've never looked back. The visuals were mediocre at first, and I couldn't read anything in the cockpit. But then I discovered the pixel density settings, which weren't even offered in-game when I got my Rift. Had to set that with OTT back then. Once I got a rig that could handle it, I now fly with a PD of 2.0 and 2X MSAA. Everything is as crystal clear as you can get in a Rift, and I can read everything in the cockpit with no problems.

Spacial awareness and situational awareness are at a level in VR that is impossible to describe to anyone who hasn't given it a fair chance. But, to put it bluntly, they are at a level that simply isn't possible with a 2D screen. On a screen, you have no depth perception, no sense of scale, and you just don't have the same coordination between your control movements and what your eyes are telling you. Getting a short range SAM shot at you in the A-10C is no longer as scary as it once was, because you can instantly get your eyes on it, and instantly/instinctually know exactly how to maneuver to defeat it. Its all about the experience each individual is looking for in their sim, and its highly subjective. I don't think there's any need for anybody to be making generalizations about groups of people based on things that can't really be quantified. If you like TIR better, stick with TIR. If you like VR better, stick with VR.

 

I like VR better. :D

[dawgie79]

I said it in another forum post:

If you’re a simmer, VR is for you.

If you’re a gamer, VR is probably not for you.

 

I was never into competitive gameplay. I’ve always just enjoyed the experience of flight. I once had a TrackIR and I sold it.

 

 

I think this describes it perfectly.

[SharpeXB]

I said it in another forum post:

If you’re a simmer, VR is for you.

If you’re a gamer, VR is probably not for you.

 

I was never into competitive gameplay. I’ve always just enjoyed the experience of flight. I once had a TrackIR and I sold it.

You could probably rephrase “simmer” and “gamer”

If immersion is more important to you than game graphics / performance or the ability to be competitive either in multiplayer or challenging single player, that is a factor in the choice.

It’s a much stated observation that VR is at a disadvantage competitively with monitors. In any game really not just DCS

Simulation is more than just immersion. It’s also the ability to simulate real tasks and challenges. I can think that there are tasks that VR might make easier like AAR. But there are others where it would badly hinder you like the ability to simply see distant targets. In VR you’re basically “simulating” a pilot with very poor eyesight, which is literally the prime requisite for a fighter pilot.

Edited February 5, 2019 by SharpeXB

[Boris]

I actually think I'm more competitive in VR. Orientation is much easier and I don't think spotting targets is harder at all. I had the same troubles on a 4k monitor.

 

Fact is, most people (I'd say at least 70 to 80%) who have tried DCS with VR have found the experience so compelling so as to make it their primary means of interaction with the sim.

[eaglecash867]

I actually think I'm more competitive in VR. Orientation is much easier and I don't think spotting targets is harder at all. I had the same troubles on a 4k monitor.

 

Fact is, most people (I'd say at least 70 to 80%) who have tried DCS with VR have found the experience so compelling so as to make it their primary means of interaction with the sim.

 

I don't have issues spotting targets either. In VR I just find that I can't spot them at the unrealistic distances that you can on a monitor. I get shot at by something on the ground, and its easier and more intuitive to remember where that was, swing around, and kill whatever it was that shot at me.

[Razi]

I'm finding that I can spot targets up to 8nm away in VR - if I know where to look. Also, for the first time, I've noticed that I can actually see bombs as they are falling, which I never used to be able to see.

[remi]

I'm finding that I can spot targets up to 8nm away in VR - if I know where to look. Also, for the first time, I've noticed that I can actually see bombs as they are falling, which I never used to be able to see.

 

I've been able to actually identify airplanes and can see how they're maneuvering during a dogfight with 4k unlike VR. Spotting a dot is not that hard.

[Harlikwin]

I said it in another forum post:

If you’re a simmer, VR is for you.

If you’re a gamer, VR is probably not for you.

 

I was never into competitive gameplay. I’ve always just enjoyed the experience of flight. I once had a TrackIR and I sold it.

 

Perfectly stated. Actually in alot of ways I think people using TrackIR are cheating ;)

[Harlikwin]

I think you misunderstand what "viewpoint" means. I don't care how well you get along with VR, because that's your viewpoint and has no relevance to how I get along with VR. Your "counterpoints" are basically saying "I have a different experience than you", which is great, but you also try to dismiss mine because you don't agree.

 

You were just flat out wrong on some of your points. its not "impossible" to use reference materials in VR as an example. And yeah clearly VR where its at today isn't for you, but at guess it will be at some point in the future.

[Ranma13]

I specifically mentioned live maps, tutorials, and airport charts, amongst other things. You can't put a live map on the kneeboard, nor view a tutorial website. You can't load up a 200-page PDF and do a search on it, and you can't take notes. You can't zoom into the small details on an airport chart, and you can't refer to a physical book. Reference materials come in all shapes and sizes; it's not limited to just Chuck's guide. The kneeboard is not a great solution, and it's worse in VR due to the lower resolution.

 

The other points are my experience and I've stated them as such. If you think that it's still "flat out wrong", then I stand by my statement: you misunderstand what "viewpoint" means.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Ranma13

[Mr_Burns]

I play trackir and it can be a pain in the arse. Move too fast and too far an it inverts itself or loses track, you have to be smooth when you play and even then it can be fickle if you have another light source or want to look down at a panel.

 

 

Im not going to VR yet and got trackir before VR, as someone else mentioned, TiR doesnt need a computer upgrade, you can just plug and play, you can also probably sell it for little less than you paid for it if money is an issue.

 

 

However, whilst you could also get a 2nd hand Occulus, you would need the PC to run it.

 

 

I think the phrase is horses for courses, they are not really an alternative to each other, TiR provides additional immersion to 2d but VR is a different dimension.

 

 

 

I havnt gone VR because by the time a build a rig capable of running a VR headset, the VR headset will move along and a new generation will be available, I might jump aboard the next release of VR and do a PC build just for it.