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TrackIR or VR? why?


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There are certainly innovative solutions that are in the works that will give us workarounds; that is for sure.

 

I don't think you'll have major VR innovations for DCS-grade simulations from major companies. There is not enough $$ in the market for it. VR has been mostly geared towards gimmicky, silly games. There is some innovation and interest on the commercial end of things, but definitely not flight simulators.

 

I think its great we have 3rd party folks coming up with innovative solutions, but it still doesnt check my box of physical control interaction and customization. To reiterate: Mine, me, myself - maybe not you.

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Sync the simpit geometry with the virtual one , including Hotas positions , and all you need is effective tracking gloves...

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There are certainly innovative solutions that are in the works that will give us workarounds; that is for sure.

 

I don't think you'll have major VR innovations for DCS-grade simulations from major companies. There is not enough $$ in the market for it. VR has been mostly geared towards gimmicky, silly games. There is some innovation and interest on the commercial end of things, but definitely not flight simulators.

 

I think its great we have 3rd party folks coming up with innovative solutions, but it still doesnt check my box of physical control interaction and customization. To reiterate: Mine, me, myself - maybe not you.

 

But i am speaking of physical control interaction ...

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Captoglove has been working on their tech for some times and afaik is not there yet.

Don B

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Yeah I mean - it'll get there some day more than likely, but I think we are talking at least 10 years. Most innovations are going to be catered to the gimmicky/silly game market as there is more profit/ easy usability there than the Sim Market.

 

Prime example is Ace Combat 7. That game is going to gross more in sales in a month than DCS would in a year. That would have been a great way to break into the for-the-masses flyboy game. VR couldnt even do that, likely because of performance concerns. If there was a title to really hone in on the whole VR/Flying experience that was it. Instead 3 missions are VR capable and only the the Play Station.

 

I'm not, in any way advocating for AC7... I'm just noting the obvious. VR is not geared towards simmers/flyboys and it is unfortunate. So I went the simpit route with TIR.

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Pretty sure simmers are exactly what Pimax is targeting with their VR.

Don B

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Pretty sure simmers are exactly what Pimax is targeting with their VR.

 

 

There's enough money on offer from an awful lot of, let's face it, very well off people. You only have to look at the TM Warthog and a myriad of other flight sim and sim racing related products to realise companies will develop VR at the very least for that same market.

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I meant the literal flicking of a toggle switch, not something that gets mounted on your hand that allows you to click, or mouse wheel.

 

That is precisely what i'm talking about . You are in YOUR simpit , wearing a headset and tracking gloves . To flick a physical switch , move your hand and let the virtual pilot's hand lead you to that physical switch - best of both worlds , and a major enhancement of either !

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Massive hardware is not required. My PC is 3 years old and my card is a 980ti.

A 980Ti is actually massive hardware for some. Are you saying a 3 year old PC is Old?

 

I think a lot of the VR negativity comes from people with 4K monitor buyer’s remorse.

Not even. This game and others look gorgeous in 2160p 60fps and maxed graphics.

 

There's enough money on offer from an awful lot of, let's face it, very well off people. You only have to look at the TM Warthog and a myriad of other flight sim and sim racing related products to realise companies will develop VR at the very least for that same market.

Except VR headsets are a great deal more expensive and complex to develop than fancy joysticks. VR will need to find a big market in order to fund that development. If it comes it will almost certainly have to be from beyond gaming.


Edited by SharpeXB

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I watched that video of Mover and his buddy flying and it was completely conclusive proof that VR is quite natural and the only thing miss was the gforce and graphic fidelity.

 

Now, shall we list the things missing in TiR?

 

1. feeling

2. Flat

3. Not to scale

4. Not 1:1 tracking

5. Lacks immersion

6. Allows cheating with rubber neck

 

Yup... And while I used TIR for years, it really fails to give you the 1:1 situational awareness building VR does. Plus my TIR5 would randomly loose tracking looking up a fair amount or looking in etc. My rift has 0 issues with tracking, ever.

New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1)

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That is precisely what i'm talking about . You are in YOUR simpit , wearing a headset and tracking gloves . To flick a physical switch , move your hand and let the virtual pilot's hand lead you to that physical switch - best of both worlds , and a major enhancement of either !

 

Yeah I had a thread over in VR about good ways to do this. I'd prefer not to build a VR pit beyond a HOTAS.

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Prime example is Ace Combat 7. That game is going to gross more in sales in a month than DCS would in a year. That would have been a great way to break into the for-the-masses flyboy game. VR couldnt even do that, likely because of performance concerns. If there was a title to really hone in on the whole VR/Flying experience that was it. Instead 3 missions are VR capable and only the the Play Station.

 

I'm not, in any way advocating for AC7... I'm just noting the obvious. VR is not geared towards simmers/flyboys and it is unfortunate. So I went the simpit route with TIR.

This. It’s just not possible to design games that exploit all the potential of both consoles and VR. Mainstream games, not just sims like this.

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Pretty sure simmers are exactly what Pimax is targeting with their VR.

 

Then they missed the boat from what I read. Or if by simmers you mean the racing drivers, which it may work for better.

 

Personally I'm hoping that the new HP reference set or the Cosmos will move the bar up on PPD significantly.

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Massive hardware is not required. My PC is 3 years old and my card is a 980ti. I’m over the moon with the performance and tweaking only took a few hours initially with a bit more now and then as new builds of DCS and graphics drivers come out.

 

Of course, as proved by the real F-18 who compared VR to TiR, the later is next to hopeless when it comes to flying in formation.

 

I think a lot of the VR negativity comes from people with 4K monitor buyer’s remorse.

 

My system is living proof you don't need an uber system to run VR. I am looking fwd to building a new rig though. As well as DCS optimization.

New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1)

Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really).

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Except VR headsets are a great deal more expensive and complex to develop than fancy joysticks. VR will need to find a big market in order to fund that development. If it comes it will almost certainly have to be from beyond gaming.

 

One can easily get a Rift Bundle with Touch Controllers today as well as some WMR headsets like the Odyssey for less than a complete VKB or Virpil HOTAS setup.

Don B

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One can easily get a Rift Bundle with Touch Controllers today as well as some WMR headsets like the Odyssey for less than a complete VKB or Virpil HOTAS setup.

 

Heck , the Rift bundle is cheaper than a TM Warthog Hotas and by a large margin at that .

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Exactly but the lie is still pushed around. Buyer's remorse is a terrible thing. :pilotfly:

 

Heh, its kind of like the buyer's remorse I feel when I look at all the stuff that I bought to set up a sim pit with 2 monitors (one of them touchscreen), Cougar MFDs, and a few other expensive items. Then I got my Rift and all of that money I spent suddenly became unnecessary. I just replaced the TV I have my rig connected to with a QLED 4K, and DCS looks awesome on it, but its still a pancake. Pancakes just don't do anything for me anymore in flight sims. Gotta have that sense of motion, sense of scale, and depth perception. :D

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A PC like mine is cheap now. I see from your specs that you need massive hardware for your monitor experience.

4K does need massive hardware but those needs are easily (not that cheaply) fulfilled by a strong graphics card. The challenge with VR in DCS is that the load falls heavy on the CPU. Those aren’t as easy to upgrade as a graphics card. And they aren’t getting faster fast enough.

The thing about top end hardware with a 4K monitor is it will buy you top performance. You can top it out. Top end hardware still struggles with VR. No amount of money will max the performance there.

 

Exactly but the lie is still pushed around. Buyer's remorse is a terrible thing. :pilotfly:

So it’s a lie that VR is demanding on your hardware? Maybe check out the Virtual Reality forum that’s one giant post of people with top end machines complaining about performance.


Edited by SharpeXB

i9-13900K @ 6.2GHz oc | ASUS ROG MAXIMUS Z790 HERO | 64GB DDR5 5600MHz | iCUE H150i Liquid CPU Cooler | 24GB GeForce RTX 4090 | Windows 11 Home | 2TB Samsung 980 PRO NVMe | Corsair RM1000x | LG 48GQ900-B 4K OLED Monitor | CH Fighterstick | Ch Pro Throttle | CH Pro Pedals | TrackIR 5

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4K does need massive hardware but those needs are easily (not that cheaply) fulfilled by a strong graphics card. The challenge with VR in DCS is that the load falls heavy on the CPU.

 

I didn't find that to be the case. Upgrading my GPU from a 980ti to a 1080ti made a bigger difference than upgrading my CPU.

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I meant the literal flicking of a toggle switch, not something that gets mounted on your hand that allows you to click, or mouse wheel.

 

I just peak under the HMD (through the bridge of my nose to use my physical switches. Doesn't break my immersion in the least. I understand others may hate it, for me, I get to have both. Physical interaction and situational awareness that is not possible w/o VR.

hsb

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I didn't find that to be the case. Upgrading my GPU from a 980ti to a 1080ti made a bigger difference than upgrading my CPU.

You have a good CPU. But it’s drawing everything twice in 3D that makes a strong CPU necessary. DCS is already CPU limited in 2D in many situations. VR makes it even more so. Being GPU limited is generally easier to deal with.

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